Conversation with linc2@conference.fnal.gov at 2005-10-17 17:50:42 on lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/gaim-work-2 (jabber)

(17:50:42) lauram [lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/gaim-work-2] entered the room.
(17:50:43) linc2
(17:50:54) sgatz [sgatz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:59:59) lhouf [lhouf@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:00:54) sgatz: Hi, Lynn. You are in the right place. How are you?
(18:01:00) mgarrity [mgarrity@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:01:14) lhouf: I'm fine, how are you?
(18:01:31) sgatz: Hi, Megan. I think you are supposed to be in Room 4 to start tonight.
(18:01:33) sgatz: Lynn,
(18:01:37) sgatz: I am fine.
(18:01:50) lhouf: I have to apologize, I just started my project with the hook this afternoon in class and I just got home so I haven't posted my reflection or anything yet!
(18:01:51) sgatz: Isn't today a warm day for October? We are really lucky.
(18:02:22) sgatz: You can post it tomorrow. It is hard to get the posting organized at first.
(18:02:54) mgarrity: I am finally here.
(18:03:25) lhouf: great, thanks. I will post it as soon as I can
(18:04:41) sgatz: Megan--I believe you are supposed to be in room 4 to start out tonight and the come to room two later.
(18:04:56) kmorrow [kmorrow@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:05:15) lhouf: hi kristin!
(18:05:23) kmorrow: hello
(18:05:33) sgatz: Hi Kristin. How are you?
(18:05:41) kmorrow: great thanks, and you??
(18:05:54) sgatz: Megan--Stephen just asked where you were. Can you move to room 4 now?
(18:06:03) sgatz: I am fine, Kristin.
(18:06:24) mgarrity: sorry. according to the schedule, I thought I was in room 2.
(18:06:49) sgatz: You are for the second part of the chat.
(18:06:59) mgarrity: thank you
(18:07:07) sgatz: I will see you later, okay

(18:07:34) sgatz: It looks like we are still missing Paula, Julie, and Julie.
(18:09:02) sgatz: I think we will go ahead and get started even though we have just the three of us so far. . .
(18:09:16) sgatz: I know you have both started your project. . .
(18:09:33) sgatz: How did the hook work for your students?
(18:09:51) lhouf: mine worked great...
(18:10:05) lhouf: the students got really excited and involved
(18:10:50) sgatz: What was it in your hook that fired them up?
(18:11:10) lhouf: I think just the idea of a class pet gets kids really excited...
(18:11:45) lhouf: also, for some reason, last week they all started randomly asking if we could have a class pet and I just kept saying, maybe we'll think about it...
(18:12:22) lhouf: so today I brought in the aquarium and just set it on a table all day and by the time we sat down to talk about our science unit about animals they all had pets on their brain
(18:12:57) kmorrow: I give you alot of crdit Lynn, the idea of a class pet horrifies me!
(18:13:02) lhouf: they really think the idea came from them, and they are excited to plan the project and how they want to research and everything
(18:13:04) sgatz: You couldn't have asked for a better start to the project if you tried! What directions are they going to try to figure out how to pick the best pet?
(18:13:32) lhouf: we just talked about what we would need to find out about the animals before we chose one...
(18:14:13) lhouf: and they came up with great ideas- food, habitat (they actually used that word!), how much it would grow, how to hold it, etc.
(18:14:45) lhouf: tomorrow we're going to form some groups and talk about ways they could research and ways they could present their animal before we vote
(18:15:16) sgatz: I am impressed! The words they are using and the connections they are making will make this project exciting and meaningful for them.
(18:15:28) lhouf: they're doing great
(18:15:30) kmorrow: it really sounds great
(18:15:49) sgatz: Was there anything you would change or revise to make the hook even better?
(18:16:43) sgatz: Or....is it effective as it is?
(18:17:00) lhouf: I was planning on starting our science unit first so that they had a little animal/habitat background, but it just didn't work out that way. I wanted the project to be geared a little more toward the habitat, but I'll just have to guide them a little toward that.
(18:17:13) lhouf: I think it was very effective as it was though
(18:17:27) sgatz: Right now you have created a need to learn about the habitats. . .
(18:17:35) lhouf: right
(18:17:44) sgatz: That is fine, too, as it gives them a reason for needing to learn about habitats.
(18:17:56) sgatz: They might listen more carefully now!
(18:18:17) lhouf: that is true
(18:18:21) sgatz: Let's talk about Kristin's project for a few minutes.
(18:18:29) sgatz: Krisitn, how did your hook work?
(18:19:18) kmorrow: well, we are already in full swing...the hook went really well...i shared a letter from an organization that was collecting items for the victims of Hurricane Katrina...
(18:19:56) kmorrow: My kids were already so motivated, as we got a new student in our class who had fled New Orleans...
(18:20:47) kmorrow: As a part of my hook, I also used a mini slide show from the internet showing the devastation the hurricane caused...my kids showed incredible compassion and commitment to doing something
(18:21:50) sgatz: It sounds like they are fully invested in helping.
(18:22:08) sgatz: What directions is the investigation going? How are they solving the problem?
(18:23:53) kmorrow: There are two groups of kids and they are working on two different aspects...one group is organizing a schoolwide "Coins for Katrina" coin drive in which grade levels will compete to raise the most money..after the money is collected they will have a sayin how the $$ is given out...
(18:25:18) kmorrow: The second group is doing an e-mail Toothbrush collection...they started by writing an e-mail stating that we are collecting toothbrushes to donate to the victims of Hurricane Katrina (the Hook letter stated toothbrushes were one of the needed items)...the letter was e-mailed to friends and families...
(18:25:48) kmorrow: and at the end of the letter it says "Forward this e-mail on to as many as you can"...
(18:26:40) kmorrow: The kids so far have collectedtons of toothbrushes from all over the world..and they are so excited...
(18:27:27) kmorrow: when the toothbrushes come they work to organize a system for handling it...bith projects are very student driven and everyone is really engaged!
(18:28:29) sgatz: It certainly sounds like your students are "captured by the hook." How exciting it must be for first graders to be able to get such a strong response this fast! What content areas in your curriculum are you connectly the project to?
(18:28:41) sgatz: connecting
(18:29:39) juliec [jcantafi@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:29:44) kmorrow: it is actually third grade and it connects well to letter writing, money, our community theme...
(18:30:20) kmorrow: We start off the year in third grade with a huge unit on communities so this really fits in well
(18:30:38) sgatz: Why did I think it was first grade?? I am losing it! Sorry. . . .Now I see a much richer connection. . . I agree that it is a great fit.
(18:30:49) sgatz: I was worried when I was thinking it was first grade.
(18:31:12) sgatz: Is there anything that you might change about his kind of a project the next time you implement it?
(18:31:25) kmorrow: i ended up starting a bit ahead of schedule so that is why the response has been so great...it is amazing to see how into it the kids are! First grade--yikes! I don't think that would work...
(18:32:14) sgatz: I agree! That is why I was worried. But, now that my brain is awake and I know it is 3rd--It makes sense that you started early. . .
(18:32:22) sgatz: you were capturing the moment and the momentum.
(18:32:30) kmorrow: I am pretty happy with the way it is going...it has been a little tricky since I changed my project at the last minute...
(18:32:30) juliec: I have caught up on everything you have been discussing. It sounds like both your projects are off to a great start!
(18:32:47) sgatz: I think so, too.
(18:32:51) kmorrow: but it has really been well worth it
(18:32:55) sgatz: How is your project going Julie?
(18:33:25) juliec: it has been slow to start. we had testing in our lab and couldn't use the computers until oct. 9
(18:33:49) juliec: Then, the first time in our lab, neither Julie W or I could log in
(18:34:11) sgatz: Wouldn't you know something like this would happen?!
(18:34:16) sgatz: What is your plan now?
(18:34:22) juliec: we have presented our hook, and the students seem excited. with first, the more they know about the authors, the more they get into it
(18:34:49) sgatz: How did they respond to the hook?
(18:34:52) juliec: our plan is to retouch on basic computer skills this week and go visit our author's website
(18:35:26) juliec: they responded with excitement especially when we talked about inviting the principal in and their parents
(18:35:57) sgatz: What kinds of things have then done to guide the project?
(18:36:00) juliec: they have had writing celebrations so we are tying our author studies into writing time and the "fair" at the end into the celebrations
(18:36:04) ppeterso [ppeterso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:36:34) juliec: they have talked about authors they are interested in and they want to know more about as well as studied different author styles
(18:37:12) juliec: they are also talking about how the fair will look and what types of things they will do to present
(18:37:23) sgatz: Okay--now we are getting somewhere. Now I can see some choices for them to make independently. And, that is hard at this point in first grade.
(18:37:55) juliec: it is...especially because they DO need gentle nudging in certain directions
(18:38:19) sgatz: First graders? You MUST be kidding??? ;)
(18:38:33) sgatz: Paula--I see you just joined us. Welcome.....
(18:38:38) ppeterso: hi
(18:38:39) sgatz: How is your hook and task going?
(18:38:49) juliec: the great part has been that our new writing program has incorporated author studies so they are already interested in authors
(18:39:11) sgatz: Must be good planning on your part, Julie.
(18:39:23) ppeterso: I have been doing mini lessons because my principal has been out of the building a lot and hasn't a chance to come and speak to my children
(18:39:32) juliec: thanks, sharon, but sometimes I think it's just kizmit
(18:39:51) sgatz: So you haven't been able to start yet, right Paula.
(18:40:02) ppeterso: I have been working on the nutrition part of my project so that my children are ready to do the engaged part
(18:40:33) ppeterso: This is our DIstricts Lunch Month and I the District supervisor is planning on coming over
(18:40:36) Julie W [jmac3412@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:41:07) sgatz: Will she help you with the hook or just with the student information?
(18:41:13) ppeterso: both
(18:41:31) sgatz: Good--sometimes those adjustments have to be made.
(18:41:33) ppeterso: I am really happy about how interested my students have been in the topic
(18:42:02) ppeterso: We are going to JFK in two weeks and I am hoping my students can search out info on their own with surveys they are making
(18:42:22) ppeterso: Is it okay to do my project this way
(18:43:07) ppeterso: We will still design lunches based on nutritional guidelines-- I just had to change the approach to best fit school and district schedules
(18:43:14) sgatz: You will have to make the necessary adjustments to get it started. Just be sure that the kids have opportunities for to guide and lead the direction of the project.
(18:43:24) ppeterso: They are already
(18:43:55) ppeterso: They are making up the surveys and list of questions for the information they will need about nutritious meals
(18:44:13) sgatz: Good! That is the most important thing.
(18:44:25) sgatz: Does anyone else have a question for Paula?
(18:44:55) ppeterso: I have been using engaged learning in other classes as well. I really like watching students take ownership the way they have
(18:45:05) Julie W: it seems like your project is off to a good start...even with the adjustments made.
(18:45:13) sgatz: Julie W--glad you could make it. How is your project going now?
(18:45:16) juliec: what other classes have you been using engaged learning in, paula?
(18:45:27) ppeterso: social studies and reading
(18:45:43) Julie W: my project has been going really well, the students are really excited to get going
(18:46:00) juliec: tell me more i may be able to use some of your ideas:)
(18:46:19) Julie W: i saw that julie c...told you about our computer lab problems...but hopefully this week will be a quick recovery
(18:46:28) ppeterso: are you talking to me Julie
(18:46:35) juliec: yes
(18:48:22) ppeterso: when i had my students decide in groups what the focus of their Christopher Columbus study would go
(18:48:48) juliec: that's great. what type of response did you get from first grader?
(18:49:32) ppeterso: I don't have quite the detailed lesson as with this project, but I find the more input students have in selecting questions and the focus of what we are studying they stay more involved.
(18:49:54) sgatz: Exactly Paula--that is the key. . .
(18:50:08) ppeterso: I used this approach for our study on trees and Tall Tales.
(18:50:19) sgatz: The more they 'own ' the task--the harder they will investigate.
(18:50:52) juliec: I agree. For each Foss unit, I start by letting the students look at all the materials and we talk about what they want to learn. it's interesting how different kids navigate to different science materials...some like the books, some the dittos, some the experiement tools
(18:51:08) ppeterso: I have been amazed how interested my students are with sharing what they know with the rest of the class even my reluctant studetns
(18:51:21) Julie W: many times they also just appreciate learning what they want to and answering the questions they feel are important...they want to find the answer so much harder
(18:51:37) juliec: whoops, i meant hwo differnent kids "gravitate to different materials" up there
(18:51:39) ppeterso: I agree Foss is excellent for this
(18:53:17) juliec: yes, julie w, i am that way too...my favorite class when i was getting my masters was when we (the class) got to decide at the beginning what we wanted to learn about
(18:53:18) Julie W: i hadn't thought to approach a new foss unit like that...i think i might try that for the next big unit
(18:53:44) kmorrow: Lynn..we could try it with our science kits as well
(18:54:05) lhouf: it's similar to the idea of KWLs, the kids really love telling what they already know and then thinking about what else they could learn
(18:54:30) juliec: a friend of mine gave me the idea. it helps in that it naturally caters to different learning styles as well as giving the students empowerment over their learning
(18:54:46) Julie W: today i did a science lesson that was layed out for free experimentation with the materials for a part of the lesson, and it was interesting to see some children were trying to use them in the way that i was going to "teach" them...
(18:55:20) sgatz: Then do you check off each question as they learn what they wanted to learn? . . . .
(18:55:32) maryolso [maryolso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:55:37) sgatz: You also can ask them to list what they still want to learn after the unit has been taught.
(18:55:39) Julie W: it made me think of assessment for learning, i didn't have to teach those children how to use the materials that way, they were actually able to show their classmates...and some of them really focused and paid attention more than they would with me
(18:55:45) lhopkins [lhopkins@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:55:57) hyee [hyee@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:56:21) sgatz left the room.
(18:56:27) sgatz [sgatz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:56:49) juliec: what science do you use-lynn and kristin?
(18:56:53) sgatz: The more students feel a part of the plan the more focused they will be.
(18:57:11) lhouf: Delta kits
(18:57:32) sgatz: It never fails...just when our conversation gets going it is time to switch rooms. For the second part of the chat you will be moving to a different room and then for the last part of the chat you be returning to this room.
(18:57:47) kmorrow: bye
(18:57:48) juliec: ok, thanks sharon, bye for now, all
(18:57:51) juliec left the room.
(18:57:52) sgatz: So--go ahead to your next room and I will see you again in a little while.
(18:57:54) lhouf: bye
(18:58:02) kmorrow left the room.
(18:58:06) jschwarz [jschwarz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:58:06) lhouf left the room.
(18:58:13) sgatz: Welcome those of you who just arrived!
(18:58:19) smcnicho [smcnicho@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:58:20) ppeterso: Am I supposed to switch rooms
(18:58:20) hyee: Hi!
(18:58:24) sgatz: I am glad that you all arrived safely.
(18:58:31) jschwarz: hi
(18:58:49) lhopkins: Paula, check you chat schedule
(18:58:57) sgatz: Yes, Paula. You need to go to room 5 with Jill.\
(18:59:12) ppeterso: Thanks
(18:59:26) ppeterso left the room.
(18:59:36) mgarrity: Is this my correct room?
(18:59:39) sgatz: I am so thrilled to get to talk with different people throughout the chats!
(18:59:46) sgatz: Yes, Megan. Welcome.
(18:59:51) sgatz: +
(19:00:10) sgatz: During this part of the chat we are going to be talking about the articles.
(19:00:47) sgatz: What are your thoughts after reading the articles? What did you learn about assessment?
(19:01:37) hyee: I'll go first!
(19:01:43) sgatz: Great!
(19:02:01) hyee: Both were good, but the Assessment Crisis article hit home with me because....
(19:02:33) hyee: I am part of an Assessment task force in my building and this is our focus this year...very timely...
(19:03:27) hyee: In tthe second article, there was alot of suggestions for creating students in charge of their own learning that is helpful for this project.
(19:03:57) maryolso: I agree with Holly.....
(19:03:58) sgatz: What ideas impressed you the most?
(19:04:09) sgatz: Go ahead Mary
(19:04:10) hyee: looking at my notes...
(19:04:45) hyee: Effective learning...
(19:04:56) maryolso: but, since the article was written in 1988, I have not seen any change in assessment in my building...
(19:05:33) maryolso: perhaps it is because of the NCLB hit list. All we seem to focus on is standards assessment
(19:05:42) lhopkins: I don't think it has changed in many buildings
(19:05:56) hyee: needs to be balanced between personal improvement and students wanting to take control of their own sucesses.
(19:06:10) jschwarz: we do alot of this is our district...
(19:06:43) lhopkins: what do you mean?
(19:06:55) jschwarz: but our new supt in implementing "new " assessments that we already do...
(19:07:15) jschwarz: he hasn't investigated our district enough and the admin says nothing
(19:07:36) sgatz: Unfortunately we are driven by percentages and grades and then the focus is just that rather that student self-assessment and student improvement.
(19:07:42) smcnicho: I would like more professional development in this area, but my district is on NCLB's "hit list" and any professional development is directed to raising scores.
(19:07:47) mgarrity: The "assessment crisis" article hit home for me too because our school is a bit assessment crazy right now. The assessments we give are helpful in many ways, but I feel I do i more assessing than teaching. There has got to be another way.
(19:08:22) maryolso: Yes...
(19:08:28) maryolso: formative assessment
(19:08:38) jschwarz: We need time to refelct on the assessment results
(19:08:58) lhopkins: I agree, we do MAP testing and ISAT, but I think it doesn't always benefit the students because the feedback comes too late
(19:09:23) jschwarz: and testing like this isn't always beneficial...
(19:09:32) sgatz: I do agree that we are heavy into assessments right now. If kids have a clear target and know the expectation it is the first step toward improved performance. We can do some informal assessment FOR learning --to see where kids are in the curriculum.
(19:09:47) mgarrity: I agree. We need time to reflect on past assessments before giving new ones. There always seems to be a time crunch.
(19:09:50) sgatz: Then we know whether to speed them up, slow them down, or differentiate.
(19:10:19) jschwarz: we also nee to remember the melting pot we have as students
(19:10:38) jschwarz: students are not made from one mold
(19:10:41) sgatz: We all are getting that melting pot and getting more and more children with diverse needs.
(19:10:53) lhopkins: After all this testing how about giving us time to look at the results so we can make good decisions on where to take our students next?
(19:11:14) hyee: I agree.
(19:11:27) sgatz: Our curriculum shouldn't be 'one mold' either. We are fortunate to have a Data Retreat for our BLT team at each school. . .
(19:11:41) jschwarz: what's blt
(19:11:41) sgatz: We meet together for two days and dissect the data that we have collected.
(19:11:49) sgatz: Building Leadership TEam
(19:12:01) jschwarz: thanks
(19:12:08) sgatz: The two days are intense, but very helpful to "Own' the needs of our students.
(19:12:18) lhopkins: How nice. We are always trying to do it after school and everyone is going different directions and there is never enough time.
(19:12:24) smcnicho: My district always gave us time to look at the ISAT and ITBS scores but...
(19:12:58) smcnicho: I found that looking at the scores of previous students didn't do much for the students now.
(19:13:25) sgatz: That must be frustrating. . . Has anyone tried to give more comments on homework--rather than grades to see if it is more encouraging for students to work harder and improve?
(19:13:28) mgarrity: I agree. Their scores are often inconsistent.
(19:13:36) lhopkins: I agree about that when you are looking at ISAT. Map is different because it is the current students.
(19:13:50) jschwarz: our asst supt. just gave data about the ISAT test scores in a board meeting and used different ranges for each graph and axis. she was clueless on any info she was asked. it goes back to i don't think admin know what is truly going on like the teachers in the trenches
(19:14:32) jschwarz: and we have them sharing info to the community
(19:14:48) hyee: Sharon, we are just beginning that step in student assessment....looking at student work and providing students the tools and feedback they need to grow.
(19:15:12) sgatz: How is it working Holly?
(19:15:42) hyee: Well, it just began several weeks ago...so too early to tell!
(19:15:51) smcnicho: I'm interested to see what is going to happen in my district with a new set of criterion referenced tests that are given on a standard every 6-8 weeks. We are supposed to get feedback within a week.
(19:16:38) sgatz: Ask the kids to tell you how they are doing. . . .as they become the owner of progress, you will see progress. When the teacher owns the task, you work very hard, but the student does not.
(19:16:58) sgatz: The children will start to see the value of learning.
(19:17:07) hyee: Yes, that is the direction we are going.
(19:17:13) hyee: Thanks!
(19:17:21) sgatz: What assessment strategies are you including in your projects?
(19:17:23) mgarrity: We give common assessments every 6 weeks. They are helpful, but very time consuming to grade and refelct on.
(19:17:47) maryolso: In my project...
(19:18:07) lhopkins: My students did a self assessment on how they worked at the cemetery individually and how their group did to start with.
(19:18:15) mgarrity: We are including formatiive and authentic assessments.
(19:18:27) maryolso: I am doing a lot of formative assessment by talking and questioning of the students...
(19:18:43) maryolso: and they are alos doing logs that incluide metacognition
(19:19:16) sgatz: Okay--all of these ideas are great! Are the kids responding well? Is it new for them? Metacognition is a fantastic opportunity for the kids --to reflect on their thinking.
(19:19:29) smcnicho: It sounds as if Mary and I are using a similar type of assessment, except for the metacognition. (?)
(19:19:48) maryolso: I'll bring you a copy of my log to adler
(19:19:59) sgatz: Susan--that would be a good piece to add with your learners.
(19:20:09) smcnicho: Thanks
(19:20:16) sgatz: Are any of the students stunned or surprised with your expectations?
(19:20:38) maryolso: no, I teach gifted
(19:20:46) maryolso: all day
(19:20:59) mgarrity: Not really. They are pretty excited. This is my second year with the same students so they are enjoying the new challenges.
(19:21:05) smcnicho: my students aren't stunned too often. But they are not gifted.
(19:21:18) sgatz: Sometimes the gifted have a harder time telling you how they know and why they know, because they JUST know!
(19:21:31) lhopkins: I don't think I am far enough into my project for them to be surprised yet. They are excited so I don't think they will be surprised by things
(19:21:55) hyee: Some are....but most are too excited at this point just about doing the project!
(19:22:29) jschwarz: i will start on monday, but from other areas of the curriculum we have reflected on have been very positive
(19:23:10) sgatz: Those are fair comments. We need to remember to give the students opporutnities to self reflect. The more involved in the thinking and assessing the students are, the more they will see the value of the learning process. It is a win, win situation although it takes more time to get going--and lots of modeling!
(19:23:38) jschwarz: but so worth it
(19:25:15) sgatz: I think it is a direction we need to go to survive.
(19:25:43) maryolso: not all administrators see it that way...
(19:26:01) maryolso: they see ISAT scores and that is their main focus
(19:26:11) smcnicho: or teachers
(19:26:32) maryolso: true
(19:26:33) mgarrity: That is unfortuntae.
(19:26:34) sgatz: That is because their funding is connected to those results. AYP groups are assessed through ISATs.
(19:27:14) maryolso: I think the only word my didstrict know is summative
(19:27:42) sgatz: If the district doesn't learn formative, then instruction is not paced appropriately.
(19:28:11) sgatz: Some kids are bored, some are confused, and some are right on target. How would you know without formative assessments?
(19:28:14) maryolso: I wouldn't be sitting here if i didn't agree
(19:28:26) sgatz: I think we see eye to eye, Mary.
(19:28:41) sgatz: It must be because I taught gifted for 15 years!
(19:29:06) maryolso: How did you survive
(19:29:43) sgatz: Does anyone else have any questions or comments about the article?
(19:29:58) hyee: No.
(19:30:03) jschwarz: no
(19:30:04) smcnicho: no
(19:30:08) maryolso: Yes,....
(19:30:09) lhopkins: no
(19:30:20) sgatz: Mary--tell us more.
(19:30:38) maryolso: Its just that if I were to give that to somebody who didn't know what formative assessment was...
(19:31:14) maryolso: I don't think the articles gave clear guidance to somebody just starting out with formative assement.
(19:31:32) mgarrity: I feel badly, but I need to leave now. I emailed Stephen earlier about a family event. I can get all missed info. from Barb, Rachel, or Sue.
(19:31:33) maryolso: They did though...
(19:31:48) maryolso: make a very convincing arguement.
(19:31:48) Julie W left the room.
(19:31:52) Julie W [jmac3412@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:31:53) smcnicho: I totally agree. I was looking for more specifics.
(19:31:59) juliec [jcantafi@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:32:17) kmorrow [kmorrow@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:32:18) sgatz: Will look into that for you Mary. . .Thank you for your honest discussion tonight. I think we are all facing similar issues and it is a tough time to teach right now. But the more we know about where kids are on the learning curve, the better our instruction will be.
(19:32:35) maryolso: Thank you.
(19:32:36) maryolso: bye
(19:32:39) sgatz: The better our instruction, the better they will perform on tests.
(19:32:39) mgarrity: Sharon, did you get my last message about needing to leave?
(19:32:52) sgatz: Yes, Megan. Go ahead and good luck with your family.
(19:32:59) lhopkins: are we suppose to go on to our next room?
(19:33:04) mgarrity: Thank you.
(19:33:08) sgatz: Go ahead and move to the next room.
(19:33:17) lhopkins: bye
(19:33:17) hyee left the room.
(19:33:17) jschwarz: bye and thanks
(19:33:18) sgatz: Thanks for participating everyone.
(19:33:21) maryolso left the room.
(19:33:21) jschwarz left the room.
(19:33:24) kmorrow: sharon, am i back here now
(19:33:27) lhopkins left the room.
(19:33:35) mgarrity left the room.
(19:33:49) sgatz: The room is buzzing and no one is being hit by the door as they move in or out! Safety first!
(19:33:53) Julie W: hi...quickly sharon, did you see my assignments?
(19:33:57) sgatz: Welcome back everyone. How was your last discussion?
(19:33:59) smcnicho left the room.
(19:34:12) kmorrow: fine
(19:34:28) juliec: good
(19:34:36) sgatz: Now we should have our first group back. . .
(19:34:39) Julie W: it went well
(19:34:51) sgatz: One of the topics that you all wanted to know more about was rubrics.
(19:34:54) lhouf [lhouf@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:35:07) sgatz: So--we decided to have that topic as our breakout group tonight.
(19:35:58) sgatz: http://edweb.sdsu.edu/triton/july/rubrics/Rubric_Guidelines.html
(19:36:07) sgatz: Go to this website and let me know when you are therer.
(19:36:16) Julie W: i'm there
(19:36:23) kmorrow: there
(19:36:29) lhouf: got it
(19:36:37) juliec: me too
(19:36:53) ppeterso [ppeterso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:37:18) sgatz: Take a look at the steps at the top.
(19:37:31) ppeterso: great
(19:37:33) Julie W: i think the most important one is to reevalutae it
(19:37:51) Julie W: often i think about what i would change, but don't make a notation on it
(19:38:03) ppeterso: there
(19:38:19) sgatz: It is important to have post its handy!
(19:38:37) Julie W: i think i should buy stock in post-its!
(19:38:47) sgatz: Students can help you write some of the verbiage so that it is clear to them.
(19:38:52) ppeterso: I find that making measureable is the most difficult for me
(19:39:23) ppeterso: I think I try to have to much in some of my rubrics
(19:39:26) sgatz: Number 5 is important. . . .Remember, you can't measure verbs such as awareness, enthusiasm, and understand.
(19:39:43) ppeterso: I have found it useful to find rubrics for similiar projects and adapt them
(19:39:49) sgatz: Paula-that is a common problem for all of us. We try to make the rubric do too much at one time.
(19:40:05) kmorrow: sometimes less is more, especially with the younger kids...
(19:40:25) ppeterso: Also, I find a rubric may not work for different classroom of students
(19:40:28) juliec: true...too much and they lose their focus
(19:40:32) sgatz: Number 1 is important, too. DOes the rubric coorelate with the outcomes of your project?
(19:41:00) sgatz: Look at the terms to use. . .
(19:41:04) juliec: what do you mean by that question?
(19:41:29) ppeterso: not sure what you mean
(19:41:32) sgatz: That is really the key to determing the learning outcomes
(19:41:48) sgatz: That is a question to ask yourself as you design your rubric.
(19:41:56) kmorrow: i like the suggested "terms to use"
(19:41:57) lhouf: I think it's important for each item to focus on a different skill. Sometimes I think it's easy to make two items that are really measuring the same thing in different words.
(19:42:11) sgatz: Good point, Lynn.
(19:42:22) sgatz: Which are your favorites, Kristin?
(19:43:13) kmorrow: needs work, good excellent are great for primary to understand
(19:43:38) ppeterso: I like needs work, good and excellent, but I would add very good in it
(19:43:48) juliec: i like novice, apprentice, proficient, and distinguised...all are sortof developmental terms.
(19:43:52) kmorrow: the numeric scale is also easy to understand for little ones
(19:44:03) juliec: yes, the numeric scale works well
(19:44:03) sgatz: It doesn't really matter what the labels are as long as the descriptors in the boxes create clear targets for the kids to get to. One site I read today talked about having the labels be all positive so kids would be willing to admit their actual location on the rubric because the terms would all be positive.
(19:44:09) lhouf: I also like beginning and developing, and then maybe excellent
(19:44:13) Julie W: sometimes it hard to make sure rubrics are easy for children to follow, but not to simplistic so that the parents over analyze or misunderstand the topics
(19:44:48) sgatz: Good point Julie. Parents will always meet the top criteria.
(19:44:53) sgatz: Sometimes the numeric scale is equated with grades.
(19:44:53) Julie W: i like that thought sharon
(19:45:08) juliec: yes, that's what i liked about novice, etc. because they aren't so much about how good/bad someone is but more about where they are in their learning
(19:45:18) kmorrow: positive terms is a good idea
(19:45:23) ppeterso: The parents in my school would most probably equate numbers with grades
(19:45:31) sgatz: It made sense to me.
(19:45:49) ppeterso: I like the postive captions idea
(19:46:04) ppeterso: What would some typical categories be
(19:46:24) sgatz: We want kids to be able to tell us where they are as they strive to meet the highest expectation they can. They feel comfortable if all the descriptors are positive.
(19:46:28) sgatz: Okay. . .
(19:46:49) sgatz: ameteur, college athlete, semi professional, professional
(19:47:00) sgatz: page , squire, knight, lord\
(19:47:17) sgatz: peasant, artisan, noble, pharoh
(19:47:21) juliec: those are really fun8-)
(19:47:23) kmorrow: got it--need idea
(19:47:29) sgatz: ground round, london broi, sirlon, filet
(19:47:37) sgatz: Bob cat, panther, tiger, lion
(19:47:47) sgatz: go you get the idea?
(19:48:00) Julie W: yeah...this is really neat
(19:48:04) sgatz: And they had the novice, ....,...,.... one that the page we are on has.
(19:48:09) Julie W: i can't wait to share with others
(19:48:21) lhouf: that's cute
(19:48:25) ppeterso: great idea -- i have to think of some for my grade lever
(19:48:36) juliec: yea-we are big into rubrics at our school and the other primary teachers will like this
(19:48:56) sgatz: I will give you the website page as long as you don't use the rubric they model as it is terrible.
(19:49:05) ppeterso: We are just getting started with rubrics--it is not an all school idea
(19:49:15) ppeterso: thanks
(19:49:18) sgatz: http://www.interactiveclassroom.com/articles_006.htm
(19:49:23) juliec: thanks
(19:49:54) Julie W: thanks
(19:50:02) sgatz: If you go there now, look at the rubric for Good Poetry--it is on page 7 and let's look at why I don't like this rubric.
(19:50:16) Julie W: can we set up a board where people can post more ideas like these?
(19:50:46) ppeterso: good idea
(19:50:51) juliec: good idea
(19:51:09) sgatz: When you are there and have the poetry rubric on the screen--let me know.
(19:51:16) lhouf: I'm there
(19:51:18) Julie W: i'm there
(19:51:40) Julie W: you're right, this is terrible
(19:51:51) sgatz: I don't have a problem with the headings for the categories.
(19:51:55) Julie W: i promise to only use the terms, not the actual rubric
(19:52:04) Julie W: that is terms as headings
(19:52:06) juliec: i'm there
(19:52:22) sgatz: I don't like the range of points as it is too subjective. What else is wrong?
(19:52:39) Julie W: the point values, not specific
(19:52:41) Julie W: 1-3
(19:52:57) lhouf: I don't like the point ranges within each category
(19:53:02) kmorrow: me either
(19:53:15) sgatz: They are too subjective.
(19:53:17) lhouf: and the terms are hard to measure- like you said, subjective
(19:53:46) sgatz: RIght! This rubric isn't designed well and the targets are foggy.
(19:54:05) juliec: Also, the terms are negative
(19:54:30) kmorrow: it would be hard for students to understand the difference between a 1 and a 3 even though they are in the same category
(19:54:37) sgatz: I agree Julie. They are negative if you are a novice.
(19:54:40) sgatz: RIght, Kristin.
(19:55:01) kmorrow: i think sometimes rubrics are made more difficult than they have to be!
(19:55:13) sgatz: I think the main thing we need to remember is to keep them positive and encouraging.
(19:55:23) sgatz: And--with clear targets so kids know what to do.
(19:55:31) kmorrow: i agree
(19:55:38) Julie W: exactly
(19:55:41) juliec: they focus on what the author isn't doing as opposed to what they can do...in a way, they reward the "good writers" and make the others feel inadequate, like traditional assessment of learning
(19:55:43) ppeterso: I thought a rubric was supposed to be specific in each category
(19:56:13) ppeterso: How do you measure 1-3, 4-6,7-9?
(19:56:22) sgatz: Yes--it is. And it should progress from the bottom category to the top category. A helpful hint is to. .
(19:56:43) sgatz: write the highest category first. Then circle the words that could vary by degrees. .
(19:56:50) sgatz: and then write the other categories.
(19:57:14) juliec: that's a helpful tool to use in designing rubrics
(19:57:20) sgatz: Paula--you can't score ranges within one category as it is too subjective and thus not a clear target.
(19:57:44) sgatz: I thought it was also, Julie. I hope it helps you all refine your rubrics.
(19:57:54) juliec: definitely
(19:58:36) lhouf: that will be useful as a starting place
(19:58:38) Julie W: i think i know what we might spend some planning time to do tomorrow afternoon
(19:58:57) juliec: yes, julie
(19:59:02) sgatz: http://webquest.sdsu.edu/webquestrubric.html
(19:59:12) sgatz: Let me know when you are at this site.
(19:59:31) Julie W: much nicer looking rubric..at least point value
(19:59:32) juliec: there
(19:59:35) ppeterso: there
(19:59:38) kmorrow: there
(19:59:41) lhouf: me too
(19:59:41) sgatz: This is a rubric for a Webquest.
(19:59:55) sgatz: Take a look at the top category and you will see a link.
(20:00:12) sgatz: It is called Fine Points Checklist.
(20:00:28) sgatz: How would this help students?
(20:00:43) ppeterso: I like this rubric--I like the idea of adding up the points and dividing by 50
(20:00:48) lhouf: this is great!
(20:00:59) ppeterso: It is much more specific about expectations
(20:01:01) lhouf: it gives specific ways that students can make improvements
(20:01:04) Julie W: this is really neat!
(20:01:06) juliec: it tells the students exactly what the need to know/do
(20:01:28) Julie W: very specific and easily viewed by the students
(20:01:51) kmorrow: like it for all of the above reasons
(20:02:07) sgatz: If I was a student I might think I achieved the top category, but now I can look carefully and use the check list to see if I really am there! Instead of the teacher say, "DID you add this or that" the child will look for himself.
(20:02:36) Julie W: i like the fact that it's on a separate page...
(20:03:01) Julie W: in 3rd last year we used to try and be that specific, but it got too wordy and difficult to navigate
(20:03:26) lhouf: I like the seperate page too, it doesn't weigh down the entire rubric
(20:03:34) juliec: yes, the seperate page is useful especially with the younger students
(20:04:07) sgatz: I think it is a neat way to differentiate. The brighter kids need this push and the slower kids don't have to be there!
(20:04:14) kmorrow: i agree
(20:05:20) sgatz: Let's look at one more rubric. This one was used in the early days of LInC before we knew much about good assessment so it is an example that needs our help. http://www-ed.fnal.gov/help/Meehan_Nolan/student/river_monitoring_rubric.html
(20:05:28) lhouf: the lower kids wouldn't feel as overwelmed and inadequate if these were on a seperate sheet
(20:06:17) sgatz: I agree Lynn. It is a way to push the bright learner without making others feel badly.
(20:06:28) kmorrow: right off the bat i feel that the descriptors are not measureable
(20:06:33) juliec: The terms used in this rubric are subjective and ambiguous
(20:06:45) lhouf: I agree
(20:06:50) sgatz: Okay--you are all right.
(20:07:02) kmorrow: high quality?? many sources?? how many and how is quality measureable?
(20:07:09) sgatz: How could we change the subjective words to make the rubric better.
(20:07:18) ppeterso: I'm not sure what new or useful means
(20:07:25) kmorrow: "uses 3 sources"
(20:07:33) sgatz: All of you are right on target!
(20:07:48) kmorrow: maps include the following things: a. b. c. etc
(20:08:21) sgatz: Exactly! The targets are not clear for the student.
(20:08:21) ppeterso: be more specific what is needed in the biography besides facts about a person
(20:08:28) sgatz: Right, Paula.
(20:08:54) ppeterso: Hoe do you know if a student didn't get assistance in his/her research
(20:09:09) sgatz: That is another good point.
(20:09:41) sgatz: Does looking at some of these pages help you think about your project rubric and how you might design it?
(20:09:53) ppeterso: yes
(20:09:55) lhouf: yes
(20:09:57) kmorrow: sure
(20:09:58) ppeterso: be specific
(20:10:16) kmorrow: measureable criteria
(20:10:22) ppeterso: be concrete
(20:10:43) juliec: be positive
(20:10:52) sgatz: Great! What questions do you still have about rubrics or assessment?
(20:11:07) kmorrow: i think i'm ok
(20:11:09) ppeterso: none at this time
(20:11:15) juliec: I'm good for now
(20:11:19) lhouf: I'm clear
(20:11:27) Julie W: no questions...
(20:11:32) Julie W: this has been very helpful
(20:11:50) sgatz: Okay. Good. Next week we will meet online. Everyone voted to do so.
(20:11:59) juliec: Great!
(20:12:01) ppeterso: These chats are really helpful. The discussions help clarify so much
(20:12:06) Julie W: sounds good
(20:12:08) sgatz: Be sure to check the assignment page and the chat schedule to see what needs to be done to be ready for class.
(20:12:10) ppeterso: Okay
(20:12:14) sgatz: I am glad it helped.
(20:12:16) kmorrow: i will be out of town, just a reminder, sharon..see you the following week
(20:12:18) juliec: Okay
(20:12:20) sgatz: Let us know if you have quesitons.
(20:12:31) lhouf: thanks, Sharon!
(20:12:31) sgatz: Thanks Kristin. I am glad you reminded me.
(20:12:48) ppeterso: Have a great week everyone
(20:12:51) sgatz: Have a great week and thanks for your hard work tonight. IT was fast paced and busy!
(20:13:00) sgatz: Enjoy the rest of the evening.
(20:13:02) Julie W: thanks! bye!
(20:13:03) juliec: Thanks Sharon. I believe I still owe some reflections. I will catch up on these this week
(20:13:08) lhouf: you too! Bye!
(20:13:12) sgatz: You do, just catch up.
(20:13:13) ppeterso: thank you :)
(20:13:16) kmorrow: goodnight
(20:13:17) sgatz: Good night.
(20:13:19) kmorrow left the room.
(20:13:23) Julie W: am i caught up sharon
(20:13:24) juliec: thanks. Have a great week, all, BYE!
(20:13:27) sgatz: Bye
(20:13:30) lhouf left the room.
(20:13:30) Julie W: i posted today..
(20:13:36) juliec left the room.
(20:13:59) Julie W: sharon?
(20:14:01) sgatz: Okay--then I will check again.
(20:14:06) sgatz: Yes, Julie

(20:14:21) Julie W: that's all i was checking on my assignments.
(20:14:26) Julie W: i saw them earlier
(20:14:32) Julie W: i will check again too
(20:14:32) ppeterso: I will get caught up this week. Have had several family emergencies--thought I would be able to get caught up-- sorry
(20:14:43) sgatz: If you posted this afternoon, I haven't checked them yet.
(20:14:50) sgatz: Paula--good to hear.
(20:14:53) Julie W: oh that would be it
(20:14:56) Julie W: thanks!!
(20:14:59) sgatz: I will be looking for them and at them .
(20:14:59) ppeterso: I have been doing my work I just haven't posted
(20:15:03) Julie W: bye
(20:15:10) sgatz: Okay--get them posted soon so you don't forget.
(20:15:18) sgatz: Have a wonderful rest of the week.
(20:15:19) Julie W left the room.
(20:15:29) ppeterso: Thanks for all your help
(20:15:34) sgatz: No problem.
(20:15:35) ppeterso: goodnight
(20:15:36) sgatz: Enjoy.
(20:15:39) sgatz: Good night
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(20:16:13) ppeterso left the room.
(20:16:25) ppeterso [ppeterso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(20:16:42) ppeterso: Thanks for your help Laura
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