Conversation with linc4@conference.fnal.gov at 2005-10-17 17:50:49 on lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/gaim-work-2 (jabber)

(17:50:49) lauram [lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/gaim-work-2] entered the room.
(17:50:49) linc4
(17:50:49) bfolan [bfolan@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:50:49) efishman [efishman@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:50:49) spiltave [spiltave@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:56:03) sgatz [sgatz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:57:27) efishman: hello
(17:57:44) bfolan: hello
(17:58:14) efishman: are we in the correct room this time?
(17:58:40) bfolan: i believe so
(17:59:18) smeehan [smeehan@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim-work-2] entered the room.
(17:59:39) smeehan: Hello
(17:59:55) bfolan: hello stephen
(17:59:58) spiltave: Hi guys. I am working on a problem with Laura's help. I'll be in and out for a few.
(18:00:13) bfolan: ok
(18:00:15) efishman: howdy
(18:00:21) jschwarz [jschwarz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:00:39) jschwarz: HI
(18:01:02) smeehan: We are all just about here, are Megan and rachel coming?
(18:01:11) bfolan: yes
(18:01:51) bfolan: megan says she is in room 2
(18:02:31) smeehan: Barb, are you and Megan together at school?
(18:02:34) bfolan: rachel is logging on right now
(18:03:19) kmorrow [kmorrow@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:03:24) smeehan: Hello Justine and ellen, how are you both?
(18:03:37) jschwarz: just fine and you
(18:03:41) efishman: good, and yourself?
(18:03:53) smeehan: Hello kristen I think you start in room two tonight.
(18:04:09) smeehan: I am doing well, but this day has been hectic.
(18:04:18) kmorrow: Hi there..i thought it said linc4 with steve??
(18:04:32) spiltave: I'm here. Sorry. I think I hate technology
(18:04:34) smeehan: In the second part of tonight.
(18:04:45) kmorrow: adios for now!
(18:04:48) kmorrow left the room.
(18:06:00) smeehan: We are almost ready to start as soon as Meagn and Rachel join us. Any word on them Barb?
(18:06:24) smeehan: Hello Sue, glad you are here
(18:06:30) bfolan: Megan was asked to move to room 4...
(18:06:43) smeehan: Yes that is the room we are in.
(18:06:46) spiltave: Hi Stephen.
(18:07:03) bfolan: Rachel is trying to log in. SHe is having trouble...we will try to help.
(18:07:20) bfolan: she's almost on
(18:07:23) rbernste [rbernste@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:07:30) spiltave: Hi Rachel
(18:07:41) smeehan: Okay, well while we wait fpr rachel and Megan to join us, and here Rachel is now.
(18:07:49) rbernste: I am finally here!!!!!
(18:07:55) smeehan: Yeah!!!
(18:07:56) mgarrity [mgarrity@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:07:59) spiltave: HOORAY!
(18:08:05) spiltave: Hi Megan
(18:08:15) smeehan: Hello Meagn, all right now we have a full house.
(18:08:22) smeehan: Lets get started,...
(18:08:45) smeehan: Please let me know if you have begun your project with a simple yes or no. Thanks
(18:08:53) efishman: no
(18:08:54) jschwarz: no
(18:08:55) bfolan: yes
(18:08:56) mgarrity: no
(18:09:05) rbernste: no
(18:09:13) rbernste: but there are reasons!!!!!
(18:09:58) mgarrity: We have started with background knowledge, but haven't begun the action plan yet
(18:10:06) smeehan: Thanks I just wanted to be sure. Rachel you don't need to but do you want to tell us why you have not been able to start.
(18:10:39) rbernste: We were having some trouble with the website but now that is fixed. We have also started with the background knowledge as well. Hopefully we will be starting at the end of this week or the beginning of next.
(18:12:45) smeehan left the room.
(18:12:59) smeehan [smeehan@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim-work-2] entered the room.
(18:13:04) smeehan: Great, since Barb actually started lets hear from her first, how is it going?
(18:13:17) spiltave: They made changes to our Novell stuff this summer. Everyhting on our district web site had to be remapped and some links needed to be fixed. Also there were some issues with rights to folders where stuff is stored.
(18:13:19) bfolan: WEstarted today...
(18:13:28) bfolan: I presented the project to the students...
(18:13:43) bfolan: They were excited about the hook and possible award...
(18:14:20) bfolan: They were also very excited about the use of technology is part of their presentation of an action plan to reduce technology...
(18:14:32) bfolan: They can choose any option for presenting...
(18:14:54) bfolan: I did give them some options like a power point, a pamphlet, or even a video...
(18:15:05) bfolan: I told them we would present these to the public...
(18:15:25) bfolan: we can invite parents, community memebers, the superindendent etc.
(18:15:32) bfolan: I want them...
(18:15:59) bfolan: to have their teams ready by Friday...so theycan get started...
(18:16:22) bfolan: I'm struggling between letting them choose groups by choice ...
(18:16:37) bfolan: because the same kids are always left out. Any ideas...
(18:17:06) bfolan: we will be brainstorming this week on types of pollution.
(18:17:20) smeehan: I have some things to ask, but I will let some one else have the first question. Does anyone have a question for Barb?
(18:17:55) smeehan: Megan will you be following the same plan?
(18:18:06) efishman: left out kids- chose groups based upon self selection =limited
(18:18:38) smeehan: Ellen tell us more about what you mean.
(18:18:38) efishman: In other words let them make two choices, three group choices , you pick the best fit
(18:18:53) smeehan: That is a neat idea
(18:18:57) efishman: for all concerned-
(18:18:59) mgarrity: Yes. I will. Barb and I will work together to work out the kinks and tweak steps to make them work better for our particular groups of students.
(18:19:22) smeehan: Megan when do you expect to get started?
(18:19:35) mgarrity: Tomorrow.......
(18:20:14) mgarrity: We are already involved with our "pollution" science unit from Delta. The action plan is the icing!
(18:20:57) smeehan: That sounds good. So this project is really a culminating one. Barb, tell us more about how students reacted to the hook.
(18:21:54) bfolan: They liked the idea that they got a letter from the mayor asking them to come up with an action plan to reduce pollution...
(18:22:25) bfolan: I still think they were more excited about presenting their information through technology...
(18:22:53) bfolan: we have a long way to go because they need background knowledge but I am excited to see what they come up with.
(18:23:27) smeehan: That sounds great, do Is your letter authentic, do they believe it?
(18:23:40) bfolan: yes...
(18:24:22) bfolan: the mayor is very involved in our school... she comes to many events so it is not surprising to the students .
(18:24:38) smeehan: That is so neat. Does aynone have questions for either Barb or Megan on their Pollution project?
(18:25:05) efishman: no
(18:25:17) rbernste: no
(18:25:25) spiltave: no
(18:25:40) jschwarz: i say good for you, it isn't easy to get the comminty involvd
(18:25:49) spiltave: Wait - How big are your groups going to be?
(18:26:05) bfolan: I have 20 students. 5 groups of 4
(18:26:25) smeehan: How about your groups Megan?
(18:26:41) spiltave: I think 4 is a great number. You are lucky to have exactly 20 students.
(18:26:55) mgarrity: I have 5 groups of four students in each.
(18:27:10) bfolan: i actually have 21 but one is moving
(18:27:14) smeehan: What ideas are you thinking about for forming groups?
(18:27:35) bfolan: Based on what type of pollution they want to have a plan for reducing
(18:27:59) mgarrity: Barb and I thought about doing interest groups, based on the chosen type of pollution
(18:28:46) spiltave: Yes and you'd have to have 1st choice, 2nd choice, tec. because they're likely to pick the same thing.
(18:29:03) bfolan: yes based on their friends want
(18:29:07) mgarrity: You are right Sue!!!!
(18:29:22) smeehan: Certainly having kids selectr based on interest has advantages. But as Barb pointed out you hope they select based on interests not on the interests of people in the group.
(18:29:55) smeehan: Group formation can be really tricky, are your students 3rd or 4th graders?
(18:30:05) bfolan: 5th
(18:30:22) smeehan: Of course, never depend on your memory.:)
(18:30:28) mgarrity: you are right. we could have them fill out interest choices and we could place them in groups accordingly. This is how we arrange lit. circles.
(18:30:51) smeehan: Thanks for sharing about your project.
(18:31:02) bfolan: no problem tanks for the input
(18:31:03) smeehan: Tonight we want to talk about...
(18:31:28) smeehan: Hooks and Tasks and I think Barb and Megan have us off on a good start...
(18:31:53) smeehan: By sharing how their hook did captivate at least so far Barb's class...
(18:32:34) smeehan: Now that you are much closer to actualy sharing your hook does anyone have any questions or have you reconsidered the hook in any way?
(18:32:53) smeehan: anyone.
(18:33:00) jschwarz: no
(18:33:14) spiltave: Well, Rachel and I are using a fake letter from NASA.
(18:33:23) mgarrity: not at this time
(18:33:30) bfolan: no
(18:33:36) spiltave: We are using it with 4th graders.
(18:33:47) efishman: no- I actualy had a great lead in today-the recess superviors necer told us we were having indoor recess, the students were unprepared and upset
(18:33:52) rbernste: Yes and my class will totally believe that it is an actual letter from NASA
(18:33:58) rbernste: I am not kidding!!!
(18:34:14) spiltave: I know this to be a truth.
(18:34:34) smeehan: Rachel and Sue tell us a bit more about what you anticipate.
(18:35:06) rbernste: My class will be researching a place for NASA to send a space mission
(18:35:10) spiltave: The kids will be excited to learn about space and assist Nasa in finding a great place to put the next satellite
(18:35:41) rbernste: they will be able to use the internet for research and come up with a proposal as to why NASA should choose thier location
(18:36:10) smeehan: That sounds neat. When do you plan to introduce the hook?
(18:36:29) rbernste: By Thursday for sure
(18:36:56) rbernste: Even if I have to do it on paper rather than on the computer
(18:37:04) smeehan: Barb and Megan have been studying pollution have your studenst been studying the solar system?
(18:37:31) rbernste: Yes they began last week. We have seen a video and discussed what they already know about the solar system
(18:37:57) smeehan: Remind us what will their task be?
(18:38:44) rbernste: They will be choosing a location in space for NASA to land a satellite. Assuming there are no restrictions such as time (light years)
(18:39:14) smeehan: Will they need to make a presentation or how will they share what they have learned?
(18:39:27) rbernste: They can go anywhere but they have to beable to back up their choice with reasons that it would be an interesting place to go.
(18:40:19) rbernste: They will come up with a proposal (whatever format they want such as pamphlet or powerpoint) to present their choice
(18:40:53) smeehan: Okay thank you for sharing. I was wondering what their final product might look like.
(18:41:15) smeehan: Ellen tell us why todays recess was a good lead in to your project.
(18:42:17) efishman: Well, my students as supposed to be predicting the weather in our microclimate so that the recess supervisors can be better prepared about deciding whether recess is in or out.
(18:42:37) efishman: Today they failed to do that
(18:42:54) smeehan: Well, good for you and to bad for the kids.
(18:43:12) efishman: they never let us know, where recess was and so the students had no games to play indoors
(18:43:28) smeehan: I take it you have already been studying the weather, when do you introduce the project?
(18:44:11) efishman: yes weather is our game-tommorow or wed
(18:44:50) smeehan: Okay, what is your hook?
(18:45:36) efishman: a email from the principal complaining about the fact thsat indoor recess is problematic for everyone especially if it is called late in the day
(18:46:15) smeehan: Why email, can you get the principal to make a personal appeal? Or is email actually better?
(18:47:03) efishman: email is better because it won't be an exact face to face lie- I am not thrilled with setting them up
(18:47:56) smeehan: I don't want you to lie either,
(18:48:16) smeehan: isn't this a real problem, it was today.
(18:48:41) efishman: not to the extent we are making it
(18:50:17) smeehan: Okay, I think we need to think more about that one. I think that the simulations could be construed as lying, but not really anymore than when you make believe. Suspending reality can be both fun and interesting, but we don't want to have students feel that we are not trustworthy
(18:50:55) bfolan: I think students can learn alot from simulations
(18:51:18) bfolan: Especially if we are talking about history...
(18:51:27) bfolan: they can put themselves in their shoes
(18:51:40) smeehan: I hate to leave this sitting here like this, but I am going to anyway for the sake of time, I would like to hear from Justine.
(18:51:43) smeehan: Justine, can you update us on your project and when you plan to begin?
(18:51:54) jschwarz: HI...
(18:52:29) jschwarz: I met with the pE teacher and LD teacher last week and we decided to start OCt 24 after the group bullying presentations are done in the school
(18:52:57) jschwarz: All staff involved are excited and working on ways to get this in the community
(18:53:18) smeehan: Can you refresh us on your hook and task?
(18:54:04) jschwarz: My hook is that the PE teacher who does our bully curriculum is asking for the classes help to reach their peers
(18:54:26) jschwarz: they must research and create a program to get the info out about bullying
(18:55:00) jschwarz: there is now a posibillity to actually present to other buildings in the districr
(18:55:18) smeehan: That is really authentic, everyone can relate.
(18:55:44) aturkot [aturkot@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:55:57) jschwarz: they have done presentations in other areas so I can't wait to see these
(18:56:15) smeehan: Thanks Justine, I am sorry we had to rush you so.
(18:56:19) smeehan: Thanks for sharing today. I hope people feel free to ask each other questions. I know we have a lot we can learn from each other. At this time we are going to shift rooms to talk about the articles on assessment.
(18:56:39) smeehan: In a moment I am going to ask you to change to your second rooms...
(18:56:46) bfolan: ok
(18:56:56) smeehan: Please don't go until i prompt you to do so.
(18:57:01) bfolan: ok
(18:57:30) spiltave: ok
(18:57:45) smeehan: Okay see you later, you can go to your second rooms
(18:57:49) jschwarz: ok.. bye
(18:57:51) jschwarz left the room.
(18:57:51) bfolan: bye
(18:57:55) jcantafi [jcantafi@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:58:02) efishman: adios
(18:58:10) kmorrow [kmorrow@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:58:19) spiltave left the room.
(18:58:26) bfolan left the room (Logged out).
(18:58:28) efishman left the room.
(18:58:31) kend [kdoody@jabber.fnal.gov/Adium] entered the room.
(18:58:39) smeehan: This second topic in room 4 is with Julie, Kristen, Amy T. Mary M. Jeanie and Ken
(18:58:57) smeehan: Hello all are you all set?
(18:59:00) jcantafi: i have entered the room, but i noticed it hasn't yet posted me as so
(18:59:02) aturkot: yes
(18:59:08) kmorrow: yes
(18:59:11) jcantafi: yes
(18:59:15) kend: ok
(18:59:27) smeehan: I can see you I wonder why it has not refreshed for you.
(18:59:45) smeehan: You guys are really on the ball thatnks.
(18:59:51) smeehan: thanks
(19:00:28) smeehan: So, lets talk about those articles, had any of you seen them before, they have been around for a while?
(19:00:38) aturkot: I had never seen them before ...
(19:00:50) aturkot: they were very interesting... more teachers should see them
(19:01:14) smeehan: anyone?
(19:01:19) aturkot: gives a new perspective to assessment
(19:01:23) jcantafi: i don't remember if i had seen those actual articles, but i had learned a lot about "assessment for learning" in the past two years
(19:01:26) smeehan: I agree
(19:01:31) kmorrow: no I had not seen them..they were quite interesting...i think administrators should put them i their "required reading"!!!
(19:01:39) jcantafi: as well as other types of assessments
(19:01:54) aturkot: I am at a school that is very into test scores
(19:02:00) smeehan: In my district ...
(19:02:20) jcantafi: they really give you pause...
(19:02:29) smeehan: we have a data retreat where they select a team from each building and have you pour over all the forms of data you have on your...
(19:02:46) smeehan: school looking for ways to squeeze out some insight...
(19:03:05) smeehan: these articles really drive home the impact assessments good and bad can have.
(19:03:14) kend: We are in the public sector and politicians decide where the money goes
(19:03:43) aturkot: if administators would spend more time finiding other ways to assess students test scores would still go up...
(19:04:00) jcantafi: they do...in a class i took we talked about OUR best assessment experiences, where we had been assessed, and not one person said a traditional test was their favorite
(19:04:11) aturkot: many teachers learn to teach to the test because the schools look so closely at the scores
(19:04:26) smeehan: These articles speak to administrators politicians and teachers. What did you hear from a personal perspective?
(19:05:18) jcantafi: do you mean, my personal perspective as applied to my teaching
(19:05:29) aturkot: from the articles I learned that the more students are involved in the assessment the more success they will have
(19:06:00) aturkot: I think that when students are included in the assessment it gives them a partnership in the grade
(19:06:16) kmorrow: I feel that we are given directives "from the top", politicians, administraors, etc. and have to find a good combination of the traditional that is expected and assessment OF learning that we would like to use
(19:06:41) jcantafi: i saw a link to engaged learning in that if students are engaged/empowered within assessment, they learn more and can actually USE the assessment to learn and to guide their learning
(19:07:24) smeehan: I am nodding my head in agreement, I bet you don't see that:)
(19:07:38) smeehan: I can really relate to many aspect of these articles. The one I am thinking abou tnow is from the Stiggens article where he writes some student come to slay the dragon others come to be devoured. Have you seen this?
(19:08:24) aturkot: at my grade level we don't have state assessments but when we do have tests... there are some that just plain get all worked up and stress out
(19:08:40) kmorrow: yes, so many of our assessments set lower achieveing students up for failure!
(19:09:03) smeehan: And they deliver, don't they.
(19:09:08) jcantafi: YES! So many assessments are for the slayers who feel great afterwards because they are good at this assessment and the students who have different learning styles or are lower achievers just get DEVOURED
(19:09:16) kmorrow: yes, they do
(19:09:52) jcantafi: it's really a terrible thing to do to students who are already having trouble with "school"
(19:10:17) smeehan: I think that the articles make a pretty effective call for change, but there still are some big questions left, not fully answered.
(19:10:17) aturkot: I agree... they are set up to fail because they aren't great test takers
(19:10:43) smeehan: What questions do these articles leave you with?
(19:10:47) aturkot: I don't think that teachers have the training to change their ways
(19:10:54) smeehan: interesting
(19:10:55) jcantafi: yes-one question we always have to answer is how do we keep all students, teachers, and schools accountable?
(19:11:03) smeehan: yep
(19:11:08) jcantafi: i agree, amy
(19:11:20) smeehan: nor the time
(19:11:36) aturkot: the teachers that are out there going on and further their education...
(19:11:45) jcantafi: even if you have had exposure, and are willing, it's difficult to incorporate
(19:11:48) aturkot: and others sit and so what they have done for years
(19:11:54) jcantafi: true
(19:12:10) kmorrow: i don't know if its necessarily the teachers...
(19:12:32) smeehan: I thought it was pretty interesting in the one article about how when formative feedback was given they said the acheivement gap shrunk, did you remember reading that?
(19:12:55) kmorrow: Yes..feedback over the old"marking system"
(19:12:58) jcantafi: i was all fired up after a couple of classes last year, but i need to go back and reread my information and plan, etc in order to begin using what i learned
(19:13:10) smeehan: sorry kristen didn't mean to cut you off.
(19:13:36) kmorrow: conferencing is such a powerful form of asessment...the feedback really beats "filling in bubbles" and using a red pen on paperwork
(19:13:48) kmorrow: its ok
(19:13:50) jcantafi: yes. it makes sense, of course lower achieving students will do better when they actually know what and how to change
(19:14:23) smeehan: How does this relate to your projects and this class?
(19:14:31) aturkot: since I teach primary it is easier for me to conference with my students to find where they are at
(19:14:46) kmorrow: I read an article on Student generated rubrics in my Master's class years ago and use them now--very effective when the kids establish criteria
(19:15:02) jcantafi: it helsp me to think about different assessment options for this class
(19:15:10) jcantafi: i mean for my project
(19:15:11) aturkot: this relates because the students are driving the project
(19:15:21) jcantafi: yes, amy, that too
(19:15:32) smeehan: I would love to talk more about kid generated criteria, maybe we can come back to that.
(19:15:39) kmorrow: my kids are journaling and creating rubrics for the project
(19:15:48) smeehan: Ken, how does this look at the High School?
(19:15:49) aturkot: my kids are doing self assessments
(19:16:09) kend: there's just so much time in a 50 minute period
(19:16:15) aturkot: and we changed some of the criteria to make it easier for the students to understand in "kid" words
(19:16:50) smeehan: 50 minutes, and a lot of stress for gpa
(19:17:19) kend: And homecoming
(19:17:26) smeehan: how do students react when you get creative with scoring, Ken?
(19:17:55) kend: not sure
(19:18:06) smeehan: Have you tried different systems?
(19:18:07) jcantafi: it's interesting to hear a high school perspective
(19:18:34) kend: Variations but no real different systems
(19:19:41) smeehan: The thing we are familiar with..
(19:19:55) smeehan: is that you record grades each day or week..
(19:20:05) smeehan: and then maybe a summative assessment..
(19:20:14) smeehan: and then we average these grades out...
(19:21:13) smeehan: Why don't we just take a final grade and say all the rest were just practice and opportunities for studnets to learn. If we know what we want them to do and master why does it matter if they didn't master it the first time they tred?
(19:21:30) smeehan: tried
(19:21:38) smeehan: any reaction?
(19:21:44) kend: Is there a second time?
(19:21:52) jcantafi: wow--you are so right
(19:22:14) kmorrow: i agree--i've always been a horrible "grader" and the added pressure kids just don't need...that is why I am a huge an of the student generated rubrics..they grade themselves and create the criteria
(19:22:16) jcantafi: the second time is the summative assessment, right?
(19:23:23) smeehan: It seems to me that the old way just helps us to rank the early learners against the late learners, and I am not sure that is that important in most cases.
(19:23:23) aturkot: I would think that if they master the skills... then they are successful... some will take more than 1 chance to master
(19:23:40) jcantafi: kristen-overall how is student performance when they use the rubrics?
(19:23:56) kmorrow: EXCELLENT--it is unbelievable...
(19:24:12) kmorrow: the other day i was looking at their sentence writing and noticed it was lacking...
(19:25:04) kmorrow: so we sat down and brainstormed "things in an A+ sentence" they listed ideas such as capital letter, noun, adjective, verb, etc...
(19:25:53) kmorrow: they covered it all on their own...then we talked about "things in a "C" sentence" and they listed things that would be lacking...
(19:27:01) kmorrow: after, they wrote stories and explained to me, based on their criteria, what kind of sentence they had written, pointing out how they added everything to make it an A+ sentence. I really didn't have to do much
(19:27:22) smeehan: I think that this would give you a lot of solid examples to share with students as you continue to give them feedback on their own work.
(19:27:49) smeehan: formative assessment for sure. Assessing for learning not of learning
(19:27:53) jcantafi: that's awesome i bet the kids were excited because they knew how to make an A plus sentence and they could articulate it to you...that's assessment for learning!
(19:28:18) jcantafi: you've been reading Stiggins on Saturday nights, haven't you?
(19:28:27) aturkot: that is a great idea... my kids like to rate themselves on how they are doing
(19:28:28) jcantafi: :)
(19:28:42) smeehan: You bet!! We have about 2 minuets left any quick comments on the articles?
(19:29:05) kmorrow: no, but being 5 and a half months pregnant my life is about that exciting=-O
(19:29:18) smeehan: I am sure it is.
(19:29:19) kmorrow: no, nothing else from me
(19:29:36) smeehan: Okay don't leave yet I will give you the signal...
(19:29:37) jcantafi: i'm glad to hear you are doing well:-P
(19:30:19) smeehan: But I do want to thank you for a very interesting conversation. Ken, I am inerested to hear more abou thow all of this looks at the High school.
(19:30:49) kend: OK next time?
(19:30:54) jcantafi: thanks
(19:31:05) jcantafi: for the chat
(19:31:36) kmorrow: thanks...where to next?
(19:31:49) smeehan: Okay you can go to your next room. Thanks again
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(19:32:25) spiltave [spiltave@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:32:30) bfolan [bfolan@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:32:46) smeehan: Okay for the third part of the conversation I am here with Barb, Sue, Megan, Ellen, Justine, and Rachel
(19:33:15) smeehan: Let me know when you are here and ready to get started. Thanks
(19:33:22) jschwarz [jschwarz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:33:24) smeehan: I am ready
(19:33:28) spiltave: I'm Sue and I'm here!
(19:33:33) bfolan: i'm here ang ready:-P
(19:33:42) efishman [efishman@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:33:44) spiltave: How do you add the faces?
(19:33:46) jschwarz: hi
(19:33:46) smeehan: Okay for the third part of the conversation I am here with Barb, Sue, Megan, Ellen, Justine, and Rachel
Let me know when you are here and ready to get started. Thanks

(19:33:56) bfolan: right hand side with the smiley face
(19:34:08) spiltave: :-D
(19:34:14) bfolan: hahaha
(19:34:15) smeehan: right under the main window is a smiley face do you see it sue? Click on it.
(19:34:18) spiltave: Thanks, Barb!
(19:34:31) spiltave: Got it. Thanks!
(19:34:31) mgarrity: Stephen, I sent you an email earlier in the day about needing to leave at 7:30. I can get all needed info. from the girls.
(19:34:31) smeehan: Nice smile sue!
(19:34:32) rbernste: You guys are dorks!!!!>:o
(19:34:40) smeehan: Be nice
(19:34:51) rbernste: It is late I am trying
(19:34:58) smeehan: yes thatnks Megan Got your message
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(19:35:13) spiltave: Try having 3 kids come in every two minutes to see what your doing!
(19:35:36) smeehan: You know that last session on the articles is a perfect lead into this breakout session on rubrics.
(19:35:44) smeehan: Did you talk....
(19:35:51) smeehan: a few minutes ago...
(19:36:18) smeehan: about how th eone articles described that with feedback and formative assessment .../
(19:36:34) efishman: no
(19:36:36) bfolan: yes
(19:36:38) smeehan: the achievemnt gap actually closed? That is really powerful.
(19:37:08) rbernste: yes
(19:37:08) spiltave: I think we do that a lot. Since we don't give letter grades...
(19:37:22) smeehan: Low achiveing students when given feedback improved to such a degree that they actually closde soem of the gap.
(19:37:35) spiltave: we tell the kids what an exceeds looks like or what they need to do to get a Meets
(19:37:38) bfolan: I think we need to assess...
(19:37:42) bfolan: growth as well...
(19:38:08) jschwarz: it is hard to give lots of feedback when you have 30 kids and 7 subjects, but i am trying
(19:38:15) bfolan: someone way be way behind , show trmendous growth, and still not be near the norm...
(19:38:25) bfolan: aren't they still successful?
(19:38:32) smeehan: sorry sue, didn't mean to cut you off.
(19:38:36) rbernste: I agree with barb. It does help that we show the kids ahead of time what we are expecting the outcome to look like.
(19:38:41) smeehan: Yes I think there is success there
(19:38:48) efishman: I agree with Barb- if achild is able to show improvement but still doesn't exceed according to the standards may be working harder than others.
(19:39:00) smeehan: true
(19:39:08) bfolan: often smart kids don't work at all ...
(19:39:11) jschwarz: it helps having the students help write the expectation if posssible
(19:39:15) bfolan: because they don't need to...
(19:39:22) bfolan: we need to challenge them as well.
(19:39:44) efishman: I really would like to learn how to analyze my students' ability to learn- any way to learn that ?
(19:39:55) bfolan: multiple intelligences
(19:40:08) bfolan: that is a start any way
(19:40:51) smeehan: I think that is a good start, you already have Cognitives generally and they will tell you how well kids will learn in the traditionals classroom.
(19:40:56) spiltave: Also learning style.
(19:41:17) spiltave: I am very auditory. This on-line class is REALLY hard for me.
(19:41:32) smeehan: Okay so what doe shtis have to do with are rubrics for our projects?
(19:41:44) smeehan: I will type louder Sue:)
(19:41:59) efishman: :)- true, for instance I am in a quandry as to why certain students are able to spell while others never get it-like my son who is an average student
(19:42:01) bfolan: how they will address...
(19:42:14) bfolan: different needs, different levels,
(19:42:26) bfolan: and challenge each student...
(19:42:35) bfolan: regardless of level...
(19:42:39) bfolan: and be higher level
(19:42:41) spiltave: I agree Barb
(19:42:43) rbernste: I am 28 years old with a Masters degree and I still can't spell
(19:42:46) kend left the room.
(19:42:58) efishman: So why is that so ?
(19:43:02) spiltave: Do we put that in the rubric or just take it into consideration when grading?
(19:43:12) bfolan: good question
(19:43:27) bfolan: What about English Language LEarners...
(19:43:37) bfolan: who have tyhe concepts ...
(19:43:44) rbernste: I truely believe that spelling is inherent. My father can't spell either but my mom can. I must have inhereted the antispelling gene from my Dad
(19:43:51) bfolan: but cannot communicate it in writing or speaking as welll as ...
(19:43:58) bfolan: Native speakers of English
(19:44:00) spiltave: Because the lazy smart kids who put forth no effort should get the same grade as a average student who works their butt off
(19:44:19) bfolan: yes SUE;)
(19:44:25) bfolan: It's frustrating
(19:44:52) rbernste: There are ways for bad spellers to have thier work checked. Spelling should count for something or how will they learn!
(19:45:28) efishman: stephen- how do we write a rubric that allows for growth based upon a students starting point ?
(19:45:30) jschwarz: fair doesn't mean equal. just that each student gets what he/she needs. can rubrics reflect that
(19:45:52) bfolan: you can have an effort part
(19:45:57) spiltave: Is it possible to have one rubric to for all these learners?
(19:46:32) bfolan: i think so
(19:46:34) rbernste: Why can't you have different rubrics for different levels. I know it is a lot of work but so is everything else that we do
(19:46:49) spiltave: One rubric more generic
(19:47:02) bfolan: i agree with SUe
(19:47:28) rbernste: we can do that and ahve an other box where you can assess other things for that particular student
(19:47:37) jschwarz: don't forget student input in a rubric helps with with ownership and sometimes greater understanding of the eval process
(19:47:45) bfolan: yes
(19:47:56) smeehan: I think different rubrics for different learners makes a lot of sense, can you actually do that politically?
(19:47:59) spiltave: Have an effort part or working to the best of their ability or something
(19:48:09) smeehan: Justine that is an excellent point
(19:48:38) spiltave: Justine are you jschwarz?
(19:48:45) jschwarz: yes
(19:49:12) jschwarz: i have my students help with rubrics a lot
(19:49:14) efishman: maybe they could help chose the specific areas that need to work on- like spelling but still maintain a generic portion for the class project
(19:49:38) spiltave: I agree with Justine. Let them have input on what they will be graded on. I bet they will be harder on themselves than us
(19:49:52) bfolan: they usually are or they ...
(19:49:56) smeehan: Can you open a browser window I want to show you a rubric. Let me know when you are ready and I will post the link
(19:50:06) bfolan: think they did great when they were far off the target.
(19:50:13) efishman: okay
(19:50:19) bfolan: okay
(19:50:19) jschwarz: ok
(19:50:41) spiltave: ok
(19:50:49) smeehan: Sorry Barb I did not mean to cut you off, that is the third time tonight for me:-X
(19:50:57) bfolan: that's o.k.
(19:51:18) smeehan: Here is the link, It is a rubric for a high school project take a look and then lets talk.
(19:51:20) smeehan: http://www-ed.fnal.gov/help/Relativity/student/endoyrub/litscrub.html
(19:51:50) rbernste: cant get there
(19:52:06) rbernste: forget it I got there
(19:52:12) smeehan: Here is the page with other links to the same projects rubrics.
(19:52:13) smeehan: http://www-ed.fnal.gov/help/Relativity/student/endoyrub/yeprub.shtml
(19:52:25) smeehan: Rachel, glad it worked out.
(19:52:32) bfolan: got it does it say literature
(19:52:53) bfolan: search rubric
(19:53:31) smeehan: Yep well what do you think?
(19:53:50) bfolan: I like how they use the standard
(19:54:02) bfolan: with them listed as a matter of fact...
(19:54:11) bfolan: my pricipal would go nuts for that
(19:54:19) spiltave: I like the ideas. Some of the vocab is too hard for our students
(19:54:30) bfolan: we could alter it...
(19:54:33) smeehan: Sue, truer words
(19:54:42) bfolan: it is a high school rubric
(19:54:43) jschwarz: vocab is hard for me-i'm still in sixth
(19:54:55) rbernste: I like the application of information. It lets them take ownership of what they do with what they have gathered
(19:54:59) smeehan: I'm 48 and the vocab is hard for me.
(19:55:12) bfolan: >:olol
(19:55:20) efishman: I am glad I don't have to grade these projects
(19:55:23) bfolan: laugh out loud
(19:55:43) bfolan: I think it amkes it easier so you don't have to pull a grade out of the air
(19:55:52) smeehan: I think this rubric shows a lot of indepth thinking and planning. Really impressive and I mean it. But I doubt this rubric would be of use to students.
(19:56:07) jschwarz: i like that in some areas it spelled out and not subjective
(19:56:11) bfolan: if it was written at their level
(19:56:13) spiltave: Sure and if the kids know the expectations up front..
(19:56:22) smeehan: This rubric assess what was learned, but does not help students to learn.
(19:56:31) spiltave: they can't complain when they earn their grade
(19:57:03) smeehan: I agree Sue thats why we want students to help create the rubric if possible.
(19:57:14) efishman: Do they assess if these skills are present for the students before hand or do they expect that these discrepant skills have been amassed by their parents instead?
(19:57:28) smeehan: Okay I have tons to say on this topic, but I don't have time...
(19:57:30) jschwarz: but some of it is open to interpretation...
(19:57:44) smeehan: so instead let me share with you the burning thing in my head...
(19:57:46) jschwarz: what is few and many
(19:58:00) smeehan: how can you create or revise your rubic...
(19:58:22) smeehan: so that students can use it to self assess and peer assess all alon the way...
(19:59:04) smeehan: Barb how can you students use your rubric tomorrow and on friday to help them learn and adjust their work? Don't mean to put you on the spot.
(19:59:35) smeehan: I agree with your criticism justine
(19:59:37) bfolan: =-O
(19:59:57) smeehan: I don't know what to say Barb
(20:00:03) bfolan: We need to work on our rubric. I don't like it as it stands...
(20:00:24) bfolan: but they need to know how they will be assessed so that they have some direction.
(20:01:05) smeehan: Barb and Megan, that of course was not meant personally but you guys have started...
(20:01:34) smeehan: Well time has run out and I feel really bad becuase we just began to touch on this topic...
(20:01:35) efishman: Here is what I plan on doing- ask the students to pair/share what the rubric means, what learning is supposed to occur, before I tell them what it means and see what they say
(20:01:37) bfolan: I think the rubric needs the most work...
(20:01:46) spiltave: Should are rubric assess their final projects or their work through the unit?
(20:01:48) smeehan: Have a good week and email me if you have questions
(20:02:08) smeehan: Please don't forget to do your journal entries.
(20:02:23) smeehan: Sue, I think it needs to do both.
(20:02:27) bfolan: Stephen- you needn't ask me. I e-mail you at the drop of a hat;)
(20:02:37) smeehan: Maybe you want to have more than one rubric.
(20:02:46) jschwarz: what about next week? online or at fermi
(20:03:04) spiltave: Possibly
(20:03:06) bfolan: Stephen- I'm having trouble posting fromschool. I'll try to post from home where it has worked in the past...
(20:03:10) smeehan: It sounds like next week is online, as far as I know no one has aked to meet at fermi
(20:03:40) efishman: ta ta have a great week
(20:03:41) smeehan: Barb, keep me informed if you have lots of trouble you can email me and I will post it for you.
(20:03:47) bfolan: Do we have to post every day on the day of the activity or can it wait till the next day....
(20:03:48) smeehan: Bye Ellen
(20:03:55) efishman left the room.
(20:03:56) spiltave: Thats great Talk to you next week, bye
(20:03:59) jschwarz: bye and have a great week
(20:04:09) spiltave left the room.
(20:04:11) jschwarz left the room.
(20:04:26) rbernste: Are we leaving?????
(20:04:31) bfolan: does that make sense?
(20:04:32) smeehan: Barb, if at all possible yes, but just make sure you post a reponse for each day, even if you can't do it on a specific day.
(20:04:42) bfolan: that makes sense...
(20:04:51) smeehan: Bye Rachel nice to talk to you. Class is over
(20:04:56) bfolan: I'm just anticipating problems
(20:05:04) rbernste: see ya
(20:05:05) bfolan: ciao8-)
(20:05:07) rbernste left the room.
(20:05:10) smeehan: bye Barb
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