CHAT LOG FOR CHANNEL 1, 11/17/99

Wed Nov 17 17:51:12 1999

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lauram: Hi Jan, Welcome!

JanJ: Hi- we're in the midst of parent-teacher conferences...

lauram: How is it going?

JanJ: You wouldn't believe how great the project is going!

lauram: wonderful!!!

lauram: tell me more

JanJ: We are working with low level kids and several have really gotten into our local history--- especially war veterans!

lauram: cool.

JanJ: The kids are going out into the community, interviewing people...

JanJ: ... non-readers are willingly taking real books out of the library...

lauram: getting community involvement is great. Hope your principal appreciates all your work.

JanJ: and they are learning new technology skills.

JanJ: I'm also working with teachers on a local history grant...

JanJ: and they are incorporating some of our class into their classrooms.

JanJ: There are some problems...

lauram: so it's being used by more people.

JanJ: We are definitely having to guide a majority of these kids...

lauram: You said they were resistant to directing their own learning at the start ...

JanJ: but once we get them going, they are running with it. Some kids may never get going.

lauram: are they getting to like it more?

lauram: some may need more hand-holding than others

JanJ: Some of the problem is that these kids have never had control over their own learning-- it's strange for them.

JanJ: The teachers are also experiencing the uncertainty of all this...

lauram: sounds like some are learning more (and more excited) than their usual traditional class

lauram: yes. It can be very scary at first.

JanJ: but the teachers are becoming more tech literate and there is a lot of helping and working together.

JanJ: We're also working on 3 new grants that will involve most of these teachers... and many others.

JanJ: Is Marge familiar with the Museum in the Classroom and the Tech Literacy Challenge Fund?

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Marge: Marge ishere. yes, I am familiar with them although did not apply for one.

Marge: Sharon has done a museum in the classroom grant.

Sharon: Yes, and our district has also received a challenge grant.

Marge: That's right. So you are the expert!

JanJ: Yes, we also did one with a Peoria Museum, but we are now applying for another school building.

JanJ: Sharon, how big is your school?

Sharon: We are a junior high with about 900 students...

Sharon: grades 6th, 7th and 8th

JanJ: What do you do in the school?

Sharon: I teach 7th grade math

JanJ: Good- I am getting frustrated with schools that have special grant writers, but no teachers involved!

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Sharon: I wrote the Museum in the Classroom grant myself. The challenge grant we had a team of teachers

lauram: Hi Patti and Mardean - Welcome!

Marge: I am sure that is a problem, but grant writers don't always succeed either.

Kunz: Hi everyone

Mardean: Hello, all

Kunz: Sharon, did you get your Museum in the classroom grant?

Marge: I know of one grant where it succeeded BECAUSE there was a teacheron the writing team. She knew what to do in the classroom.

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Eileenhea: hello

lauram: Welcome Eileen!

Sharon: Yes, we did. In the very first year it was started.

Sharon: Welcome everyone. I would like to introduce you to Marge, who will be our presenter tonight...

Kunz: Do you have a copy on the Web?

Sharon: Marge has written NSF and ISBE grants and has been a reader as well...

Kunz: Not to copy, but it sounds interesting

Wed Nov 17 18:06:15 1999

Sharon: She is also the head of education office at Fermi

Kunz: Hi Marge, glad to be here tonight

Sharon: Marge would you like to start?

Marge: HI all. I am wondering how many of you have written successful grants, unsuccessful grants or no grants.

Eileenhea: I have done all that

lauram: C - all of the above :-)

JanJ: same here

Sharon: I have done the first two.

Mardean: I've written (successful) and evaluated grants (but long ago, for that)

Sharon: I have also been a grant reader.

Kunz: I have written 6 grants and they have all been funded - one was big and the others mini grants

JanJ: I have also read grants.

lauram: wow - that's a good track record.

Eileenhea: I have read grants also

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lauram: ok - Marge is going to start with the web page.

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lauram: to get to it, bring up your netscape ...

lauram: and go to /lincon/chain/

lauram: let us know when you are there

Mardean: I'm there

Eileenhea: ready

Sharon: ok

Kunz: ok

JanJ: ok

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Marge: With all the background you guys have, maybe you would like to suggest an area that we focus on. Where do you want to start?

Marge: You can clickon the link and look at the outline we made.

lauram: the link text is "Grant Writing and FInding Funding"

Kunz: How should a grant start? With quotes, citated info that supports your grant, your own laymen terms or buzz words? I feel it is the hook and I choke at the beginning.

lauram: That's a good point. I do that too.

lauram: The first page always takes me forever

Marge: Seems to me it really depends on the order in which the grantor asks for information...

Marge: SOmetimes the first stuff is pretty routine...

Marge: Sometimes it is the summary of your great idea. That is when it gets to be choke time.

Marge: For example, it is hard to put your idea in 25 words or less.

Marge: On the other hand you got all those grants, so you must be doing a lot right!

Sharon: That is my problem, keeping within the limit

Kunz: yes, and one that is catches attention

Marge: It helps to know what the funder has supported before, helps you figure out a way to "market" you idea.

lauram: maybe something that you think distinguishes you from the other applications you think they will receive

Marge: Or maybe it is something that links you project to their main program goals.

Marge: Anybody else get stuck at the beginning?

lauram: I get more stuck when I try to write the "final wording" on the first shot.

Eileenhea: I have problems with evaluation

JanJ: I list all of the areas that need to be addressed, then add my first thoughts...

lauram: It helps just to jot down a list of the most important points I want them to know about our project in rough english

Kunz: I want to write a grant for enough digital cameras for a class of 25 to follow the LInC guidelines for authentic Internet tasks, producing a product, and involving the community. Field work outside of the school walls, but to start it and say I want 25 c

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Kunz: what do you mean by final wording, laura?

Marge: So maybe you wrap it up in a brief description of what you want kids tobe able to do and then what you need so they can do it.

Eileenhea: Is there anyway to share with a class somehow..even another school?

Wed Nov 17 18:21:17 1999

Kunz: that is a good approach, Jan

lauram: I mean the formal english perfect grammar wording

Marge: Actually, I have edited Laura's stuff and she writes very well, but I had to convince her that 200 words meant 200 words.

Kunz: I like that, Marge. That's what I will do

lauram: blushes :-)

Marge: What about evaluation. Anyone else have suggestion for writing that section. I think it is difficult too because you are never sure how much detail they want.

Eileenhea: I read a federal grant last summer and they seemed to want professional evaluators. I wish there was more help for the smaller grants

Sharon: I try to make sure that the type of evaluation they want is covered, especially if this will be the documentation for the project/ product in the grant.

Mardean: I find evaluation more difficult to write than 20 years ago -- so much more emphasis on "measureable", when sometimes narrative observation may be more appropriate

Marge: I do think a lot of the feds want an outside evaluator now. ..

Marge: We found that w tag team also works....

Marge: that is gets funded....

Marge: professional does the plan, evaluates the data, writes report....

Marge: inside folks collect data, help design instrucments etc.

Eileenhea: what is w tag team?

Marge: tag team composed of a pro and the program folks like us.

Marge: Laura has an example

Eileenhea: So the pro gets paid as part of the grant?

lauram: We collect the survey data for LInC and then give it to our external evaluator

lauram: Those online forms y'all filled out ..

Marge: Yes, pro gets paid and when we have local "researchers" they get some money too.

Kunz: What is the cost for a professional evaluator and where do you find them?

Marge: OF course, we don't usually put much of our salaries in the grants since we get paid by DOE, but I know some people need grant money for themselves too.

lauram: Ours costs $400 per day last year.

Marge: A rule of thumb is 15% of the grant total for evaluation.

Marge: I have never had any trouble with that amount although some times it jacks up the cost of the grant.

lauram: sometimes she has someone else do the number crunching (like a grad student) at $250 per day - so the total is less.

Jill: I'm finding that I enjoy wearing "many different hats".

Marge: So, where do we get them. We have gone to universities with some success other folks with grants may know someone.

Marge: There are consultants out there who do this wort of work, but I am not sure what the network is...

Eileenhea: How do you know how many days?

Marge: Maybe Laura and I can check with our evaluator.

Marge: I don't usually put in a numberof days, just a %

Sharon: Marge, when you find out please post it in COW for us.

lauram: It is a good idea to get the evaluator involved at the beginning if possible.

Marge: OK

Marge: At least you want to line someone up.

Eileenhea: What have you done on smaller grants?

lauram: Then discuss the project with the evaluator and your goals for what you want to find out ...

Marge: It used to be pretty easy to do your own evaluation on smaller grants. I am not so sure you can get away with that now. ..

lauram: Then the evaluator can suggest a plan and tell you how many days they think it will take

lauram: like getting an "estimate" on a building

Marge: I would probably say based on our experience with... we will use the following strategies and instruments.

Kunz: What kind of $ amounts constitutes a "larger" grant? Federal?

lauram: then you can work with the evaluator if you think a piece will be too expensive ...

lauram: and say - how about with part a and B, but without part c.

lauram: Then you have a good estimate that the evaluator has "bought into"

Marge: Well, I would call a larger grant $100,000 or more, could be per year, maybe over 2 years.

lauram: and they can also tell you if you are going about something in a way that can't be measured - so you don't propose something you can't deliver on validly

Eileenhea: When reading large grants you can tell an experienced person has been involved...charts, spreadsheets, questionairres,,,

Marge: We just got an NSF grant last year....

Marge: they are probably among the strongest for wanting tight evaluation....

Marge: we told them in general terms what our plan would include and the oustide evaluator wrote it...

Marge: we did not get into the detail that Laura just described...

Marge: that came later when we created the plan.

Kunz: Eileen, do they submit those formats in the grant or say that is what they will do at the conclusion?

Wed Nov 17 18:37:37 1999

Marge: I don't think it is necessary to submit those in the grant.

Marge: You can reference the instruments you will use particularly if they are some well know tools.

Eileenhea: my grants were smaller ($10,000)

lauram: Marge reminds me that I was thinking about something where I got a specific request from the funder for more info ...

Eileenhea: I have read $100,000 Literacy grants and they do not seem to have evaluators

Marge: Since some of you have read grants, what lessons can you share...

Eileenhea: They use surveys of skills and test scores etc

Marge: For example, I get annoyed when I can't find the info request inthe order in which it has been requested. I don't want to search for it.

Kunz: I have to for evaluations - maybe that is why that part is easier for me! When I have to tell the truth and know specific details I choke.

Eileenhea: I think all writers should evaluate

Eileenhea: I mean read bigger grants

Jill: Stick strictly to the guidelines of the grant. If it is funding math and science, state your objectives around those areas.

Sharon: To make sure that you are writing for the grant. I read last summer and many of the grants had great ideas but did not follow the RFP's requirements.

Jill: Don't be too wordy. Readers don't read word-for-word.

Eileenhea: I mean volunteer to be a reader every chance you get...you get more back

Marge: Using bullets helps.

Kunz: The only grants I read are on the Web. That's why I asked Sharon if her funded Museum grant was published.

lauram: great points - yeah I'm sure it helps to be on the other side with the reader perspective!

Sharon: Kunz, no it was not, we had to submit it to Springfield, Il.

Marge: Even if you can't be a reader you can ask to see grants that have been funded. People will usually share.

lauram: Would it be a problem to share successfull applications with each other? Is that top secret :-)

Eileenhea: I play some games with my grants...Like when we are a team I put the poorest school first on the form

Marge: Clever!

Sharon: We shared ours with teachers trying to get the museum grant the next year.

Kunz: Last DPI grant writing seminar I went to said don't use bullets anymore. I think they decrease the words and help to outline ideas.

lauram: Yes - when we include examples we make sure minorities are represented.

Eileenhea: An always talk about the STANDARDS first and often

ChrisR: I think it's excellent to share - most funders want the program to be replicable.

lauram: That's interesting - I was usually told it's easier to read bullets, saves words, and leaves more whitespace on the page.

Eileenhea: I get a lot of smaller funding without it being a grant

Sharon: Eileenhea, what kind of funding?

Eileenhea: Well Hyperstudio gave us 25 free software

Eileenhea: Eudora gave us one each (25)

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Eileenhea: Scholastic gav us a year free ($200 each)

Sharon: How did you hear about these?

Jill: That's my question, too.

Eileenhea: I asked them...told them how I would mention them at MACUL...talked to them at workshops

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Eileenhea: The MACUL was not a promise...just a thank you

Kunz: What is MACUL?

Eileenhea: A state conference in Michigan

Eileenhea: Usually it helps to say we would talk about our project there

Kunz: As presenters?

Eileenhea: yes

Kunz: I'd like to try that with Sony for my cameras!

Eileenhea: One of the vendors gave us each a book "Internet Lessons"

Eileenhea: but that was last year...This year when I order I do remember them...

Eileenhea: You might!

lauram: Patti - did they give a reason for not using bullets in a proposal?

Eileenhea: It is not easy...sometimes it is best to find a local vendor rep

Eileenhea: Sometimes I go right to the top

Kunz: They said they were outdated and format was not acceptable. I think it must have been a personal opinion.

Eileenhea: I bought a book on Top winners for software...It gave me addresses in the back and phone numbers..

Wed Nov 17 18:52:42 1999

lauram: ok

Jill: I was just at a grant writing seminar, and they encouraged using bullets.

lauram: Are there other questions about finding or writing grants?

Kunz: I read something from our state that said any grant submitted should have 30% set aside for staff development. Do all of you include staff development. Is that still a great concern?

Sharon: Very resourceful! It helps to know where to find finding sources.

Chris: Staff dev. is so needed. It's really not hit the tip of the iceberg yet.

Marge: I have not heard about rules like that. Most of our grants are for staff development.'

Sharon: Professional/staff development is still a major part of grants.

Kunz: I like bullets - I am glad you guys use them and let's dismiss the DPI comments.

Kunz: I use them

lauram: Chris - you got a huge grant a year or so ago - what do you think helped you?

Jill: We have been using the 30% staff dev. model. It is certainly needed in our district.

Kunz: Great! Our school is in great need of staff development

Chris: It was all staff development and it was based on a great model.

Chris: It's not necessary to be really innovative there

JanJ: What model was it based on?

Chris: We also had every school in our CESA included

Chris: The ACOT and NCREL staff development models - sort of a combo. ANd

Chris: the LINC was very similar.

Kunz: I wanted to use the model we learned in LInC, but I am not sure how to give credit. Is it Barbara Means guidelines and LInC does the training using her guidelines?

lauram: yes - we use NCREL engaged learning philosophy

JanJ: Chris, is it possible to get a copy of your staff development?

Chris: Sure.

lauram: The implementation model is ours though - but it follows from having the staff dev model engaged learning.

Chris: How shall I post it?

lauram: How about in COW?

Kunz: Was the NCREL philosophy written by Barbara Means?

Chris: I'm rusty, but I'll try.

lauram: the NCREL "Pluggin In" document is the one we use.

lauram: The yellow book - do you still have that?

Chris: We used that too

Chris: and the UW Tech Institute for Educators

Chris: It's a train-the trainer

lauram: Beau Fly Jones, Gilbert Valdes, Jeri Nowakowski, Claudette Rasmussen

JanJ: Jamie McKenzie has a new book out on Adult learners.

Kunz: Yes, I know what you mean. I went on the Web and found some stuff Dr. Means wrote in 1993 and it was the same as the Plugging in literature.

lauram: oh - I should clarify - I meant the indicators of engaged learning listed in Pluggin In.

Kunz: I didn't know who was the founder of the model

Marge: I have been told that train-the-trainer is being replaced with peer coaching and mentoring as the most effective staff development model.

Chris: It is really working well. THe teachers love doing this work, and get really excited about the results.

lauram: The process for teaching that is ours (fermi) - we started in 1994 - but the main philosophy is to model what we want you to do with your students.

Marge: That may mean a change in lingo and a tweek of the program design.

Chris: MArge, I would agree with that.

lauram: i.e. engaged learning (student directed work on an authentic project) and technology integration as a tool to support that.

lauram: The mentoring approach is what we hope to do with you as you offer your staff development next semester.

Chris: because that what happens when the trainers get back to school - they become mentors and coach their peers. It becomes less formal and more user-friendly I'd say.

Kunz: I see

Sharon: I am involved in mentoring teachers at another building on doing a Reality-based Learning project. The my students are also mentors for their students.

Marge: Also, with mentoring you do not leave the trainers after their training but stick with them as they implement....

Marge: folks did not think that was necessary...

Marge: but now we realize that on-going support is as important for leaders as it is for classroom implementation

Chris: Some trainers needed me and some didn't.

Sharon: Ditto, Marge. We are going over to their building and are emailing with them.

Marge: Lately, I have tried to switch to the mentoring approach in my writing.

Chris: Oops - I should say mentors

Jill: To me, it's the key. Isn't that what we're doing?

Marge: Right!

Chris: Yes, it makes much more sense.

Wed Nov 17 19:07:55 1999

Marge: We have also been doing some peer coaching trying to help high school teachers see for themselves what inquiry teaching looks like....

lauram: Yes - purpose of CHAINLInC is to offer follow-up support and mentoring as people try out projects, apply for grants, and conduct staff development.

Marge: They think they do it, but they don't....

Marge: Some folks at the U of I are using a modeling approach in their staff development...

Marge: These ideas might help sell a project.

Chris: Great ideas, everyone. This will help a lot in my next venture.

Chris: I need to leave now. It's been very helpful listening and chatting.

Sharon: Does any one else have tips for the rest of us?

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Jill: I have a question on staff development models.....

Jill: I am on a long range planning committe for our district,

Jill: We are looking at changing our staff development model. Please share your ideas and resources.

Marge: Most teachers feel their district staff development is a waste of time. It would be great if you could adopt some ideas that really work.

Jill: Go on...

Marge: Yeeees, your district is K8 right?

Jill: Correct

Marge: Are you planning for all subject areas?

Jill: I assume so.

Marge: Do you feel you have expertise among some of the teachers in your district or do you need to look outside?

Jill: Both. Pat Pentek, Sal Tomayo and I (and a few others) have been involved with LInC.

Jill: Pat and I also worked the Summer staff development program in July.

Jill: I believe we are open to all ideas.

Marge: I guess I would try to go in the direction of peer mentoring and coaching, setting up study groups around topics of interest.

Marge: It is difficult to go into any detail and these ideas are coming off the top...

Marge: based on what other folks have described to me...

Marge: I know a few people who are really excited about a model that involves...

Kunz: We have started a new staff development method this yr. We have one early release/mo and teachers meet in committees of choice. Some do school visits, software lessons, attack low areas found on state tests, teachers using the grading software meet to d

Marge: developing lesson plans jointly and then observing one person teach...

Marge: evaluating that based on engaged learning criteria, rewriting and reteaching.

Kunz: We had a student teach a PowerPoint lesson that the teachers liked.

Marge: They say observing others really helps people see when inquiry or engagement takes place.

lauram: maybe developing lead mentors that can then help teachers at the exact time they are about to try something new.

Jill: Our charge was to research what's "working" for other districts.

lauram: so they don't feel they are trying new ideas in a vacuum - along with the peer group to discuss as they go along as well

Marge: Or what isn't working?

Jill: True.

lauram: Patti - having the student teach some topics is a great idea.

Marge: Maybe we should ponder and talk old style on the phone or face-to-face.

Jill: That would be great...either one or both. My next meeting is the first Thurs in Dec.

Jill: I'd like to have something to share by then.

lauram: Patti - Your new staff development sounds great: having regular early release days with topics of teachers choice

Jill: I thought this would be a good place to start.

Marge: Why don't you give me a call at 840-2031 and we can set up a time. I don't have a calendar here. or e-mail mbardeen@fnal.gov

Sharon: Jill, did you try our network of ChainLinc? We could email you our responses.

Jill: Will do, Marge. Thanks.

Jill: Good idea, Sharon. I will.

Wed Nov 17 19:23:17 1999

Marge: Any other burning questions or tips?

Jill: Are we on our own to search for funding...

Jill: or is there some easy way to find out what money is available?

Marge: You can check out the page on guide to grant givers. There are several good links there.

Eileenhea: The best chances I think are local...different for everyone

Marge: I agree that local is a good place to start.

lauram: Also, Chris marszalek made a monster page of funding resources

Jill: Define local. We don't seem to have alot of resources...or they're a well-kept secret.

lauram: at /lincon/issue_funding.shtml

Marge: Yes, some locals have more sources than others. In the Chicago area there is something called the Donor's Forum....

Eileenhea: What is that?

Marge: you can check out potental funders there.

Marge: In Illinois the state can be generous for science and math and technology

Marge: That's not really local but it is easier to get than feds.

Marge: Know aybody who works for AT&T or Ameritech or your local phone company?

Marge: Know Bill Gates?

Jill: If only....

Marge: Donors Forum is in Chicago and it houses info for grantors and grantees. I can post the reference for you.

lauram: There is a place in the COW for CHAINLInC to post useful grant tips/URLs so people are welcome to share URLs and local suggestions there. https://www.fnal.gov/tools/cow/

Eileenhea: thanks

Sharon: Thanks again Marge and everyone else for sharing your expertise. Remember our next network meeting is Jan. 12th. and will probably be on staff development. Any last comments?

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Marge: Bye, guys. Enjoyed talking with you.

lauram: Thanks All!

Eileenhea: Thanks Marge Bye

Mardean: Thanks, Marge!

Jill: Thanks, Marge. I'll give you a call.

Sharon: Bye, Marge, and thanks.

Kunz: Thank you

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