Conversation with linc2@conference.fnal.gov at 2005-10-31 16:08:01 on lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/gaim-work-2 (jabber)

(16:08:01) lauram [lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/gaim-work-2] entered the room.
(16:08:01) linc2
(16:55:40) ppeterso [ppeterso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(16:56:51) ppeterso: Hi Laura, Thank you very much for all your help. I am all caught up now. I updated my project journal today. I think it is done now. Is it possible to get the reflection moved or not?
(17:06:16) ppeterso: Did you enjoy your trick or treating
(17:18:21) ppeterso: Happy Halloween everyone!!
(17:51:28) sgatz [sgatz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:51:59) sgatz left the room.
(17:56:10) sgatz [sgatz@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:56:30) Laura [lauram@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:56:33) Julie W [jmac3412@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:57:36) Laura: Paula, Glad it helped and congrats on getting caught up so quickly!
(17:57:51) juliec [jcantafi@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:57:51) lhouf [lhouf@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(17:58:13) Laura: Paula, It is not necessary to get the reflection moved because I let the instructors know where to look for it.
(17:58:16) Laura: so you are all set.
(17:58:28) ppeterso: Thanks.
(17:58:47) ppeterso: It feels great to be caught up
(17:58:54) lhouf: Happy Halloween!
(17:59:14) sgatz: Hi everyone! Happy Halloween!
(17:59:17) ppeterso: Laura did you get a lot of treats?
(17:59:38) juliec: Happy Halloween!
(17:59:49) sgatz: I think everyone is here but Kristin. But we have a couple of minutes until we start. How were the room parties today?
(18:00:07) lhouf: fun!
(18:00:07) Laura: my 2 year old got a few - it was his first trick-or-treating.
(18:00:10) ppeterso: Mine was the best I have ever had. The Moms were great
(18:00:22) Julie W: pretty calm for first grade...i was very surprised!
(18:00:32) ppeterso: My two children are out right now trick or treating with Dad in the rain. How lucky can you get
(18:00:32) juliec: Mine went well. Fun!
(18:00:36) sgatz: Laura--how will you explain that he can't go back tomorrow?
(18:00:53) Julie W: the constant doorbell ringing is getting to me though, my husband isn't home yet:-P
(18:01:13) sgatz: Maybe the rain will slow things down, Julie.
(18:01:13) ppeterso: No one has rung my doorbell yet? I left the bowl outside
(18:01:31) sgatz: Let's go ahead and get started. Hopefully Kristin will arrive soon.. .
(18:01:59) kmorrow [kmorrow@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:02:11) sgatz: Tonight we want to talk about the checkpoints or artivacts that you have collected to see how the kids are progressing.
(18:02:12) kmorrow: I'm here
(18:02:15) sgatz: Hi
(18:02:20) kmorrow: hi
(18:02:28) sgatz: What are some of the things that you have collected?
(18:03:03) Julie W: i don't have any physical artifacts yet, tomorrow the students will start filling out their research note pages, so i'll start with those
(18:03:14) ppeterso: Mostly charts, graphic organizers and drawings or written ideas for meals
(18:03:28) ppeterso: I forgot graphs too
(18:03:49) kmorrow: graphic organizers, observations, journals, conferencing
(18:03:58) juliec: We haven't had enough time yet to get into collecting things. We do have a chart we made that lists what we want to know about the authors and ways we can find information
(18:04:04) lhouf: My students are working on their research filling out a research packet that I typed up. It consists of things the students brainstormed that they need to find out. They are still working so I haven't collected them yet.
(18:04:27) ppeterso: The research packet sounds interesting
(18:04:35) ppeterso: What does it consist of
(18:04:40) juliec: I like the idea of a research packet too.
(18:05:10) ppeterso: Keeping organized is one of my students greatest challenges
(18:05:19) lhouf: At the beginning of the project the class brainstormed what they need to learn about their animals, and ways that they could find the information...
(18:05:25) ppeterso: Does this research packet help your students stay organized
(18:05:41) lhouf: Then I typed up their ideas into a packet to help organize their information.
(18:05:53) Julie W: that sounds neat...i like it!
(18:06:00) lhouf: It gives them direction of where to go with their research, but it still uses their ideas.
(18:06:01) ppeterso: WOW
(18:06:14) lhouf: thanks!
(18:06:30) kmorrow: that is a good idea...do they keep the packet or do you collect it daily??
(18:06:41) lhouf: They keep it
(18:06:47) ppeterso: Were they surprised to see their work in a packet
(18:07:09) sgatz: Okay--it sounds like you are off to a good start. You are collecting a variety of artifacts. What will you learn about student progress from graphic organizers?
(18:07:32) lhouf: Not really. I had typed up the ideas just as a list earlier, so they could make some plans for their research, so they had already seen it.
(18:07:47) kmorrow: they can let you know if they are on the right track, and if not allow you to meet with individuals that need assistance
(18:08:04) ppeterso: The graphic organizers my students are using are helping them cluster their ideas. It helps me see who is on track and who understands the concepts by the way they organize their thoughts
(18:08:19) lhouf: It helps me to conference quickly and see what they still have left- if they have just started researching or if they are finding lots of info.
(18:08:38) ppeterso: Sometimes I use them to have my students explain their thinking
(18:08:56) sgatz: So are you saying that the graphic organizers are a checkpoint for content?
(18:09:09) Julie W: it also helps you see who is ready to move on to the next phase of their project and who needs to spend more time researching...also allows you to see how they are working independently
(18:09:10) lhouf: It also helps groups that are splitting up researching- they can take different pages, or topics
(18:09:20) kmorrow: yes
(18:09:35) juliec: The organizers also help to see a student's thinking/thought process
(18:09:42) sgatz: JUlie W. --it sounds like you are using it for process as well.
(18:09:57) sgatz: Julie C. and Paul were using them for thinking as well.
(18:09:59) ppeterso: Yes, some of my students use it as a jumpstart for some of their research
(18:09:59) Julie W: yes
(18:10:07) sgatz: What will you learn about student progress from journals?
(18:10:34) juliec: I think you learn what's important to the student.
(18:10:53) sgatz: Do you respond to their journals?
(18:10:58) kmorrow: thought process as well
(18:11:32) juliec: My students haven't been keeping journals, but it's a thought.
(18:11:34) ppeterso: For second graders if they can't write well journals are not as useful for me to use to assess. Some of my students have spelling and fine motor limitations and can't write all their words down. For them face to face conferencing is better and then I can help them write their thoughts
(18:12:11) Julie W: my students have their note sheets and we discuss them together
(18:12:33) ppeterso: are their note sheets mini lessons or research
(18:12:35) sgatz: Sometimes asking kids to reflect on their own progress--self assessment--helps them set targets for the next day. It also helps them see the progress they have been making.
(18:12:43) Julie W: research sheets
(18:12:48) sgatz: It also gets them to think about their own thinking.
(18:12:55) kmorrow: i wish i was better about "writing back" in journals...maybe that would be a goal...instead i conference based on what they write
(18:13:25) sgatz: The main thing is that you gave them a chance to individually share their thoughts, progress, learning, and needs with you.
(18:14:02) Julie W: we do have response journals, but being so early in first grade we haven't started using them yet...it might be an idea to consider for next year
(18:14:27) sgatz: That would be a great idea, Julie.
(18:14:36) kmorrow: first grade is tough--they are almost better at verbalizing because writing can be tricky...
(18:14:41) sgatz: Response journals are an excellent tool
(18:14:42) kmorrow: especially at the beginning
(18:14:55) sgatz: First grade is tough, I agree. Especially at the beginning of the year.
(18:15:00) sgatz: I agree
(18:15:01) Julie W: yes, but they could draw pictures of what they did and how they feel about it
(18:15:14) ppeterso: Should you use prompts with a response journal in the younger grades
(18:15:28) sgatz: That would give you a fast read on every child in a short period of time
(18:15:43) juliec: We do not use prompts. But, we do set up subject matter for the response journals.
(18:16:17) juliec: That is, we tell them they have to respond to something-a book, an author, etc.
(18:16:36) ppeterso: I could use some help in how to set up a response journal for fine motor delayed children
(18:16:53) sgatz: I would think you would need something like Julie C mentioned for first grade. Third grade--I would think a variety would be a good idea.
(18:17:04) kmorrow: otherwise you would get everything in those journals! subject matter guides them, but still leaves it open
(18:17:04) juliec: The great thing is that they can draw pictures to "respond."
(18:17:18) ppeterso: Good idea --- pictures I didn't think of that
(18:17:32) lhouf: Even some of my third graders would need to draw some pictures!
(18:17:34) sgatz: How do you accommodate these kids in writing and spelling, now Paula? I would use the same tools that you use.
(18:18:05) sgatz: We all have classrooms with a variety of learners. Each day we adjust to meet their needs. Just keep doing what you already do.
(18:18:17) ppeterso: I have them spell out loud to me, give them a lot of extra time, give them a student mentor, work one to one
(18:18:45) juliec: We started these response journals school wide because, among other things, the state tests "extended response" in reading.
(18:19:32) Julie W: what i do is have my students draw their thinking first, then write the best they can, and then i go around to the students who need assisstance and help them stretch their words or for an assessment I have them dictate to me
(18:19:41) juliec: Another thought for fine motor issues is to give those students paper without lines. THey are free to write as big as they need!
(18:19:59) sgatz: Julie C--it is best to get them started early. Starting with picktures (julieW) gets the ideas flowing.
(18:20:03) kmorrow: my students keep their own dictionaries and often use them when working in journals
(18:20:06) ppeterso left the room.
(18:20:12) sgatz: Good ideas.
(18:20:18) ppeterso [ppeterso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:21:11) sgatz: The main thing is to give the kids a chance to express themselves and share with you what they are learning. When they go back and see the first entry and compare it to the last entry, they can see what they learned and feel proud of their accomplishments.
(18:22:29) sgatz: We have mainly been talking about artifacts from students. Where else could artifacts be collected within the context of your engaged learning project?
(18:22:47) ppeterso: During the mini lessons
(18:23:01) sgatz: Tell me more, Paula
(18:23:32) ppeterso: When I taught lessons about Inspiration, Excel, and nutrition
(18:24:15) ppeterso: They used data they already collected and I used it to teach skills they needed
(18:24:52) sgatz: How did these lessons help you assess student progress?
(18:25:23) ppeterso: They showed me if they learned the skill or not, where I needed to reteach, enrich etc
(18:25:49) sgatz: Okay--that makes sense.
(18:26:03) sgatz: Anyone else have ideas to share?
(18:27:01) sgatz: It is quiet out there. .. . .
(18:27:12) juliec: Can you please repeat the question?
(18:27:43) sgatz: Where else could artifacts be collected within the context of your engaged learning project?
(18:28:01) sgatz: We have collected student produced artifacts...
(18:28:20) juliec: You could take pictures of projects in progress...
(18:28:28) juliec: and students collaborating together on a piece
(18:28:29) kmorrow: conversations and observations
(18:28:37) sgatz: Okay--those are great ideas
(18:28:52) sgatz: Is one artifact better than the other?
(18:28:55) juliec: Also-video of the same things.
(18:28:57) ppeterso: I like the camera idea--didnt think about that
(18:29:11) Julie W: me too
(18:29:16) lhouf: All of those are great ideas!
(18:29:16) ppeterso: It depends on if it assesses what you are looking for
(18:29:27) kmorrow: i think they are all beneficial because artifacts should be diverse because students are...
(18:29:27) juliec: Not sure. I think the important thing is they need to be authentic.
(18:29:44) sgatz: Good point, Paula. Good point JulieC.
(18:29:57) sgatz: Krisitin....keep going. I interrupted you.
(18:30:03) kmorrow: if students are not able to write their ideas down, conversation would work best for them...
(18:30:49) kmorrow: while others might benefit from journaling and buddy conferencing..different methods for different kids
(18:30:52) juliec: Good point Kristin! Cater the artifacts and assessments to the learning styles!
(18:31:04) ppeterso: Amen
(18:31:10) sgatz: Absolutely! And--cater them to your project.
(18:31:12) Julie W: i think
(18:31:25) lhouf: That's a great point- lots of ways of assessing assure that you are really seeing what each student can do.
(18:31:57) Julie W: sorry....i like that...we typically cater ourselves to individual students to get the point accross, why not cater the assessments too!
(18:32:42) sgatz: Absolutely. And it is easy to do in a short time. It is teacher friendly as it doesn't take a huge amount of time.
(18:32:46) sgatz: Do you grade the artifacts that you use to check student progress?
(18:33:10) ppeterso: It depends. Some artifacts are for practice
(18:33:25) kmorrow: i am not a big grader...some of it is subjective and assigning a grade to "thoughts" doesn't work for me
(18:33:39) juliec: I do not. I use them to help understand where a student is, and where they need to go as well as helping the student understand these things.
(18:34:01) sgatz: It is very difficult to do, Kristin, I agree. Julie C--you hit the nail on the head.
(18:34:06) lhouf: I don't grade a lot during the project except for participation and group work.
(18:34:34) lhouf: We use it more to make sure students are on track and know what the next step would be
(18:34:43) juliec: I'm glad to hear all this from all of you. Sometimes I feel guilty for not grading enough!:-/
(18:34:52) sgatz: If we are checking for understanding along the way, it is assessment FOR learning. It tells us if the kids are 'getting it' and if we can move on further and faster. Exactly Lynn and Paula.
(18:35:15) kmorrow: and the kids are pretty good at being honest about how they are doing so i can act more as a monitor
(18:35:21) sgatz: Give the grade at the end when they share their learning at the end of the project.
(18:35:37) sgatz: But, that is why you need the artifacts. . .
(18:35:46) sgatz: to share progress with parents and students.
(18:36:10) kmorrow: the artifacts act as mini-checkpoints, huh??
(18:36:31) sgatz: Yes--because they let you see what the kids need next.
(18:36:40) ppeterso: Student self evaluations and group evaluations are helpful too
(18:37:09) sgatz: If you are conferencing and see the kids are way off base, you would redirect the learning. . .
(18:37:20) Julie W: it helps you see where on the continum of learning they are and let's you know what you need to help them with to help them move further with their learning
(18:37:22) sgatz: that would be a checkpoint for uderstanding.
(18:37:27) sgatz: Does that help, Kristin?
(18:37:32) kmorrow: yes
(18:37:45) sgatz: Right -JulieW
(18:38:07) sgatz: Sometimes kids learn more from thinking about their thinking and self assessing than from a grade.
(18:38:15) kmorrow: i agree
(18:38:28) ppeterso: I believe this too
(18:38:28) juliec: I agree, Sharon!
(18:39:07) sgatz: Do you have any questions about these checkpoints or artifacts we are collecting?
(18:39:18) ppeterso: not at this time
(18:39:22) kmorrow: no
(18:39:31) juliec: No
(18:39:45) Julie W: nope
(18:39:47) sgatz: Remember that it is a good idea to collect them at various times during the project . .
(18:39:54) sgatz: some at the beginning . .
(18:39:58) lhouf: no questions!
(18:40:01) sgatz: some in the middle . .
(18:40:04) sgatz: and some at the end.
(18:40:53) kmorrow: yes
(18:40:57) sgatz: In the next week or so you will be asked to bring in some examples of student's reflections. It would be a good idea to gather some soon.
(18:41:24) lhouf: ok
(18:41:25) Julie W: what do you mean...bring in?
(18:41:34) ppeterso: alright
(18:41:43) kmorrow: ok
(18:41:50) sgatz: We will have you share them with the group.
(18:42:22) juliec: Okey dokey
(18:42:24) Julie W: okay...it's hard to remember online lingo, so we'll just be sharing via our chatting>
(18:43:17) sgatz: I believe so. Sometimes we post them to the server and look at them like we look at the linc pages. I am not certain what the game plan is for that chat, yet, but I will let you all know as soon as I do!;)
(18:43:48) Julie W: okay!
(18:44:04) ppeterso: My computer is acting up, if I get disconnected I will try and get back on line
(18:44:08) sgatz: The main thing to do is to keep watching --even taking notes about what you see.
(18:44:20) lhouf: Will you send out an e-mail with directions, or should we check back on the web site?
(18:46:01) sgatz: We would always send specific email directions or link them to the assignment page for you.
(18:46:10) lhouf: great!
(18:46:46) sgatz: Our next topic for tonight's chat is the Future Action Paln.
(18:47:19) Julie W: were we supposed to be able to click on the link, because i wasn't able to
(18:47:54) sgatz: http://www-ed.fnal.gov/lincon/act/el/futureplan.shtml
(18:47:56) kmorrow: ok
(18:48:01) kmorrow: ok
(18:48:20) sgatz: Go to this link and read through the page. Then we will talk about it.
(18:48:20) juliec: I wasn't able to click on it either, but when I typed it in as an address, I could go there.
(18:48:30) sgatz: Click on the one I just posted in our chat.
(18:48:34) ppeterso: I'm there
(18:48:56) Julie W left the room.
(18:48:58) juliec: I'm there
(18:48:58) sgatz: Read through it by yourselves for a few minutes and then we will talk about it.
(18:49:52) Julie W [jmac3412@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(18:52:25) sgatz: Let me know when you are ready to talk about the assignment.
(18:52:42) ppeterso: I'm ready
(18:53:08) juliec: I'm ready.
(18:53:10) lhouf: I'm ready too
(18:53:14) kmorrow: ready
(18:53:15) Julie W: ready
(18:54:03) sgatz: As you have read, it is a plan to get your project ready to implement a second time. I know we all..as teachers.. make notes about what we would do differently
(18:54:08) sgatz: but when we . .
(18:54:27) sgatz: get ready to do the project a second time we haven't made the changes or forgot what we meant to do.
(18:54:45) sgatz: THis plan will encourage you to have it ready so that next year your work will already be done!
(18:54:58) sgatz: What questions do you have for me?

(18:55:21) ppeterso: Do we use our project journals and just update them for this
(18:55:40) Julie W: so this is basically taking our reflection journals with the things that went well and didn't and putting it together?
(18:55:52) sgatz: You will use the notes from your project journals for this. That is why it is important to have specific and clear journal entries.
(18:56:02) sgatz: Do you want to see examples?
(18:56:10) ppeterso: yes
(18:56:16) sgatz: http://www-ed.fnal.gov/lincon/act/examples/futureplans/
(18:56:19) kmorrow: i still desperately need to post mine (journal entries)
(18:57:04) sgatz: There are two to look at. Diseases and parks. Check them out. I will give you some time.
(18:59:50) sgatz: Now--what are your questions or thoughts about the assignment?
(19:00:24) ppeterso: These entries are more detailed than the project journal\
(19:00:24) kmorrow: i can see how you can pull right from the journal reflections
(19:01:05) lhouf: Seems pretty clear
(19:01:05) sgatz: Yes, you can pull directly from the journal reflections. The prompts have guided you to include what you will need for the FAP.
(19:01:11) juliec: I can see that you use your journal to reflect and then you add to it with modifications, etc.
(19:01:23) sgatz: Yes--that is what we hoped you would do.
(19:01:36) kmorrow: my project will most likely change next year sharon, so we might need to talk one on one
(19:02:05) sgatz: Okay--you might not change the process, but you might change the content, right/
(19:02:26) kmorrow: exactly-the process remains and the content will change...got it
(19:03:09) sgatz: We certainly can work through that one via email. Anything you would change via process or product would be the same no matter what the topic. We will have to think of a way to address the content.
(19:03:23) kmorrow: ok
(19:03:27) sgatz: As difficult as it may seem, we have a rubric to score this plan
(19:03:30) sgatz: http://www-ed.fnal.gov/lincon/act/rubrics/futureplan.shtml
(19:03:44) sgatz: Take a look at it and let me know if anything is unclear.
(19:04:39) sgatz: It follows the key points on the Future Action Plan assignment page.
(19:04:53) ppeterso: Seems pretty clear
(19:05:13) juliec: Are the examples we looked at considered a meets? (For the most part)
(19:07:14) sgatz: Yes.
(19:07:30) juliec: It seems clear to me.
(19:07:32) sgatz: They were actual examples from students who took the course the last year.
(19:07:45) sgatz: Questions. comments?
(19:07:54) Julie W: seems clear
(19:08:04) kmorrow: i'm ok
(19:08:20) lhouf: I think I got it
(19:08:28) sgatz: We really want this plan to be for you. It should be a tool to help you revise now and have it for next year, ready to implement.
(19:08:57) ppeterso: This sounds like a useful tool
(19:09:05) Julie W: definitely
(19:09:06) juliec: As I said before, I will definitely make sure I am adding to my journal as frequently as possible. Also, I can see how this will help me next year and in future engaged learning projects.
(19:09:44) lhouf: I think this will be really useful for when we do the project again.
(19:09:53) kmorrow: i agree
(19:09:54) sgatz: That is certainly a good idea JulieC.. The more specific your journal, the easier it will be to write the FAP.
(19:11:31) sgatz: Can you think of ways that you can get more student direction into your projects? That is usually an area that is weak the first time through as it is hard to give up teacher control.
(19:12:35) ppeterso: Use engaged learning throughout the curriculum
(19:13:00) Julie W: creating rubrics
(19:13:12) kmorrow: i think it is difficult the first time..
(19:13:25) lhouf: My students have had a lot of direction and control of this project. Their ideas made the research packet like I talked about earlier, they created a checklist to assess their group work as well
(19:13:38) kmorrow: allowing students to assist in the creation of rubrics will add student direction to the project
(19:13:51) juliec: When the project is "finished" (according to MY time line:)), ask students if they want to continue/how they want to continue/what else they want to do with computers/authors.
(19:13:54) ppeterso: Use hands on activities to help create interest and questions
(19:15:12) sgatz: I agree with you when you say it is hard to include a lot of student direction the first time through. But, now that you have tried a 'little' student direction and seen the positive effects, try a little more the next time until you are comfortable with giving the kids the most they can handle at this time in their learning.
(19:16:50) sgatz: Be thinking along those lines. . . how can you offer more opportunities. It is almost a self reflection for the facilitato as well.
(19:16:52) lhouf: I think once I saw how well the students handle directing their own learning, it was easier to let them have more control. So, it would be even easier for the next project
(19:17:02) kmorrow: i agree lynn
(19:17:12) sgatz: I agree Lynn. Seeing is believing.
(19:17:26) sgatz: Think about what you were thinking last summer as you wrote this project.
(19:17:35) sgatz: Think about where you are now in believing.
(19:18:38) sgatz: Have the rest of you grown in your ability to let the students lead? Or--were you ready from the beginning?
(19:19:24) kmorrow: it is hard to give up the control at the beginning but it gets easier once you see the things the kids can do!
(19:19:25) juliec: One thing that has surprised me is how the author project has "bled" into other areas of the students lives. They are going home and looking up author webistes on their own and coming to school and sharing what they found. They are also VERY enthusiastic about using the computers for more than just games--as a tool for learning.
(19:19:31) ppeterso: Yes, I think I am stepping back more now
(19:19:46) ppeterso: I find the less I say ---the more my children share
(19:20:16) sgatz: It is hard to keep quiet isn't it. Teachers want to teach. But sometimes the best learning occurs when the teacher isn't talking.
(19:20:18) Julie W: i was ready from the beginning, i try to let my students guide the learning on a daily basis, but this is another avenue that i can use to pursue this objective...it's helping open my eyes to other areas i can implement this same idea
(19:20:46) ppeterso: The more my students took ownership the easier it becomes to stand back
(19:20:50) juliec: Honestly, I have always leaned toward an engaged learning style in my teaching, but the implementation of this project has taken me to new places.
(19:21:23) sgatz: That is wonderful to hear, Julie W. When you do that, kids will learn to be learners. Julie C. -Your students will be the winners.
(19:23:18) sgatz: So--your kids will be treated to more than one engaged learning experience this year?
(19:23:54) juliec: There us so much recent stuff out there about the importance of including students in the processes and how it really creates better learners, reflecters, and thinkers. It's almost a disservice NOT to include students.
(19:24:17) juliec: I'm not sure about another entire project...
(19:24:27) lhouf: I have done several engaged learning projects this year- not quite as extensive as this though. My students have a lot of say in our class and in the projects we do.
(19:24:50) kmorrow: i actually did a mini project on "Bats" because my kids were so driven to the topic..
(19:25:09) juliec: I feel that the other piece to remember is that "student-directed projects" also need to be guided and facilitated properly as well as aligned to the standards...
(19:25:09) kmorrow: they went about researching on their own, making graphic organizers, etc...
(19:25:18) Julie W: i think i'm with everyone else, nothing as extensive, but more similar experiences
(19:25:23) juliec: sorry for interrupting kristin
(19:25:31) kmorrow: lynn did spiders and i think her kids really guided the project too
(19:25:33) sgatz: So it sounds like you are trying to give the responsibility of learning to the students.
(19:25:50) kmorrow: the kids were interested so you have to go with it
(19:25:57) sgatz: But you make a good point JulieC when you said that the work needs to be aligned to the standards.
(19:26:14) ppeterso: I did some engaged projects in social studies on columbus, and in science with apples and in language arts when we did tall tales--but not any where as extensive as this project
(19:26:30) sgatz: Our days are jam packed as it is and the more we can integrate and match the standards, the better.
(19:27:02) sgatz: How are your projects going? Any problems?
(19:27:35) juliec: Not right now.
(19:27:38) Julie W: mines going well
(19:27:48) kmorrow: well-no questions
(19:27:54) lhouf: Going great so far! Only problems I am having is actually getting time to work- last week we had an inservice day, a field trip, and of course Halloween.
(19:27:55) ppeterso: I think mine is going well-- I just wish I had more time for it---next year i want to see if I can integrate more with other curriculum
(19:29:18) sgatz: The more you can integrate the curriculum, the easier it will be.
(19:29:41) sgatz: In just a minute we will be moving to the breakout sessions. I think I have the rooms for you based on your choices. . .
(19:29:58) ppeterso: I know. I am trying to find more age appropriate reading materials ---much of what I find is not
(19:31:31) sgatz: There will be two rooms discussin technology and Julie and Julie--- I think you both go to room 5. Lynn and Paula--you will go to room 3 and Kristin will go to room 4.
(19:31:49) sgatz: These are the breakout groups that you will be going to next.
(19:32:04) lhouf: Sharon- before we leave, I have a couple of assignments that were posted and they are not marked on the assignment status page.
(19:32:06) ppeterso: Thank you bye
(19:32:24) sgatz: Have a great break out group. We accomplished a lot tonight and I enjoyed it1
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(19:32:54) juliec: Thanks Sharon! Have a good night. I turn 40 this week...so wish me luck:)!
(19:33:03) Julie W: thanks sharon!
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(19:33:22) sgatz: Thank you!
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(19:33:52) lhopkins [lhopkins@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:34:10) sgatz: Hi Luann, You got here first!
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(19:34:26) lhopkins: This is room 2 correct for assessment
(19:34:32) efishman [efishman@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:35:26) sgatz: This is room 2 for assessment.
(19:35:57) efishman: Stephen told me room 2 but the schedule says 3-
(19:36:06) sgatz: Ellen--I think you want to be in room 3.
(19:36:10) Amy I [aingente@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:36:16) efishman: Byr
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(19:36:29) maryolso [maryolso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:36:57) sgatz: Hi Amy and Mary. You are in the right room. We are still waiting for a couple of participants.
(19:37:04) maryolso: HI
(19:37:06) Amy I: hello!
(19:37:56) sgatz: We are waiting for Pam and Holly.
(19:38:12) sgatz: Is Jeanne here yet? We must be waiting for her as well.
(19:39:51) sgatz: OKay--it doesn't take this long to change rooms, so we will go ahead and get started.
(19:40:03) sgatz: This breakout session will be about assessment.
(19:40:18) sgatz: I like to start with your questions so that I make sure the session meets your needs.
(19:40:34) sgatz: So, with that in mind, what questions do you have for us to help you answer?
(19:40:44) Amy I: I am looking for an effective way to balance individual assessment and group assessment...
(19:41:07) Amy I: Like, how do you give a group grade if only one person in the group does the work? How do you grade fairly?
(19:41:09) maryolso: When have we assessed too much. When is enough enough
(19:41:39) sgatz: Let's take Amy's question first and then Mary's.
(19:42:20) sgatz: One thing I have done to assess group work is to have the kids write down their contribution and every group member must agree that what is written is accurate. . .
(19:42:38) sgatz: that way we see what each child really did. From that I give a grade. Other times. . .
(19:43:09) sgatz: I have the group give the grade to each other--but you have to be careful with that one.
(19:43:18) sgatz: What do the rest of you do?
(19:44:35) Amy I: I've tried the group coming up with grades for everyone that everyone agrees with, but peer pressure gave me bad results.
(19:45:22) sgatz: Then I would go with the first strategy that I suggested. Another idea. . .
(19:46:01) sgatz: is to have they keep a daily log of what they accomplished today and what they will do tomorrow. Then I would grade on their accomplishments.
(19:46:04) lhopkins: I've never given a group grade...I conference to determine what each person did and give a grade that way
(19:46:31) Amy I: I like that log idea! Thanks!
(19:46:55) sgatz: Luann--I have a difficult time with group grades, too.
(19:47:08) lhopkins: If someone doesn't pull their weight ...usually in conferencing it comes up
(19:47:25) sgatz: Good point.
(19:47:46) maryolso: My students do concept maps, I conference with them, do walk arounds, and the students do problem logs that deal with metacognition, questions they may have, issues in the problem, a summary of what they have learned.
(19:48:54) sgatz: That strategy should give you a lot of information as well, Mary.
(19:49:03) sgatz: The more you can observe, the better.
(19:49:19) jlohfink [jlohfink@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(19:49:26) sgatz: Mary asked this question. . . .When have we assessed too much. When is enough enough?
(19:49:56) sgatz: What are your thoughts?
(19:49:58) maryolso: yes, but sometimes my students just want to work without taking the time to address theri comments to me
(19:50:25) maryolso: I think I'm bothering them. They are very focused
(19:50:35) sgatz: I don't think you have to conference everyday with every student.
(19:50:38) maryolso: I think its best to just watch them
(19:50:43) sgatz: I agree.
(19:50:47) Amy I: I don't think you can ever assess too much. Of course, it must be informal. You can even assess by looking over their shoulder at their work. Now evaluating, that is done too much!
(19:51:14) sgatz: I think you have to check in with those kids who need the proding or alerting that you are watching.
(19:51:27) maryolso: I don't conference with them everyday. ok ok ok Amy I agree with you
(19:51:58) sgatz: Mary--good! You would drive yourself crazy!
(19:52:16) jlohfink: How much self-evaluation do you have taking place
(19:52:16) sgatz: I think you have to determine what you need to do based on your class.
(19:52:27) maryolso: I agree
(19:52:56) sgatz: Some classes need little and some need lots.
(19:53:36) maryolso: I don't think my kids need that much
(19:53:36) sgatz: Part of assessment is re educating parents as well. When you can put the ownership of learning on the kids, it is most effective. Self reflection is extremely important.
(19:53:59) jlohfink: I really like the log and plan for the next day that was mentioned earlier. It's good to look back and forward
(19:54:20) sgatz: And the ownership of that plan is on the students.
(19:54:26) sgatz: You aren't doing it, they are.
(19:54:42) jlohfink: So how do you get the ownership of the plan on the students?

(19:54:54) sgatz: When they create it, they own it.
(19:55:03) Amy I: I agree!
(19:55:34) sgatz: The students are directing the learning, so they should be creating the plan for tomorrow's work.
(19:56:03) sgatz: Sometimes they learn by their mistakes.
(19:56:17) sgatz: But it won't happen very often.
(19:56:33) jlohfink: What types of scaffolding do you do to get them out of the mindset that the teacher is responsible for the students' learning.
(19:57:14) Amy I: The backmapping we did really showed the kids they are in charge, not the teachers.
(19:58:04) sgatz: Jeanne--before I started my engaged learning project, I would model planning next steps with my kids. They would have seen it and helped plan it. . .
(19:58:18) sgatz: when I start the EL project, it is now their responsibility.
(19:58:44) sgatz: Yes--some will do it well at first and others will learn by making mistakes. But all will do it well by the end of the project.
(19:59:24) sgatz: Does that make sense to you?

(19:59:29) maryolso: yes
(19:59:53) sgatz: What other hurdles are you trying to leap over? What other questions do you have for us?
(20:00:22) jlohfink: yes it does, but I don't get to see students for a prolonged period, so in my mini-lesson time, we create together.
(20:00:56) sgatz: Do you do that as a model? Are they ever given the chance to create their own?
(20:01:02) jlohfink: I am teaching the research--problem solving model to students that are working on both Marie's and Mary's rojects'
(20:01:30) jlohfink: s
(20:01:46) sgatz: Ok--so you are showing them how and modeling. The next step is to let them try it themselves. Their plans will now be a little different.
(20:02:21) jlohfink: Yes, model, and then practice
(20:02:29) sgatz: And, the next time they do a project, they should be able to create their own plans.
(20:02:35) sgatz: So--that works.
(20:02:51) sgatz: The whole goal is for them to go home tired at the end of the day and for you to go home relaxed!
(20:03:04) maryolso: yep-right
(20:03:08) jlohfink: Wouldn't that be a nice change!
(20:03:14) Amy I: ha ha, that would be nice!
(20:03:17) sgatz: Come on--dream with me!
(20:03:26) lhopkins: sounds good to me
(20:03:26) maryolso: trick or treat
(20:03:44) sgatz: You might be surprised.
(20:04:13) sgatz: How many of you have students writing reflections about their progress/work?
(20:04:36) lhopkins: just starting too...not that far into my project
(20:04:43) maryolso: all of them
(20:04:45) Amy I: My students are writing a few
(20:04:48) jlohfink: not I, but it sounds like a good idea
(20:05:19) maryolso: your kids are my kids
(20:05:46) sgatz: I really believe that when kids have to think about their progress/learning and reflect upon their efforts, they become more attached to the learning and work more effectively toward the goal. Teachers can learn a lot from these reflections, too.
(20:06:12) jlohfink: yes they are, but I hven't charged them with writing reflections or seen the reflections yet.
(20:06:37) sgatz: Jeanne-you are in a great spot to have them reflect. . .
(20:06:45) jlohfink: Part of the Big6 is just that--reflecting on your work. Time to put it into practice.
(20:07:33) sgatz: How effective was your plan? What would you do differently? What do you wish you had included? These types of questions help them self reflect.
(20:07:55) sgatz: I know.... I am making it sound easy. But, it is time well spent.
(20:08:41) sgatz: Have any of you had student led conferences with parents?
(20:08:53) Amy I: ours will next week
(20:09:08) lhopkins: I have in the past, but not this year
(20:09:16) sgatz: How did you get the kids started and focused Amy?
(20:09:41) Amy I: We have a form that guides their thinking...
(20:09:51) Amy I: They fill it out before the conference...
(20:10:23) Amy I: It has reflective and goal type questions
(20:10:47) Amy I: THey then just go through the sheet with their parents. They are too nervous to think on their own when the conference comes.
(20:11:18) sgatz: That is a great plan! It is hard for kids to lead the conference without good structure.
(20:11:39) sgatz: Luann--did you find them to be successful last year?
(20:12:12) lhopkins: They were successful...students saved their work and then...
(20:12:28) lhopkins: picked work they felt they did well on and some they didn't and ...
(20:12:50) lhopkins: talked to their parents about them... what their succcesses were and what they needed to improve on
(20:12:57) lhopkins: parents were very impressed
(20:13:26) lhopkins: I didn't do it this year...
(20:13:38) lhopkins: because it requires some setting up and ...
(20:13:50) lhopkins: I missed a day a week with jury duty...
(20:13:56) lhopkins: got a little behind..
(20:14:18) sgatz: You are correct when you say it takes extra time. Maybe next year!
(20:14:30) sgatz: Our time is almost up. . .
(20:14:42) lhopkins: I plan on it...think it is very worth while ...
(20:14:48) sgatz: I want to remind you to keep up with your reflections in your journals. . .
(20:14:57) sgatz: Email questions to the listserv. . .
(20:14:59) sgatz: And...
(20:15:13) sgatz: Do you need office hours? Let me explain. . .
(20:15:34) sgatz: Office hours are like a professor sitting in his office waiting for students to come by and ask questions. . .
(20:15:52) sgatz: One of the facilitators would be in a chat room and if you had questions you could drop in and ask them. . .
(20:16:19) sgatz: If this is something you would like, would you email the list serv with times that it would be most helpful for you. . .
(20:16:39) sgatz: Let us know if you want us to have office hours....and then what times would be most helpful.
(20:16:45) sgatz: Does that make sense?
(20:16:49) lhopkins: yes
(20:16:55) Amy I: yes
(20:16:56) jlohfink: yes
(20:16:57) maryolso: yes
(20:17:22) sgatz: Let us know what you think. Coming to office hours is optional.....never required. But we want to help you when you need it.
(20:17:42) sgatz: If you have no further questions, you are free to go and enjoy the rest of Halloween.
(20:17:46) maryolso: thank you
(20:17:48) sgatz: Thanks for you participation.
(20:17:50) lhopkins: thanks
(20:17:53) Amy I: thank you. have a good week, everyone!
(20:17:54) sgatz: Let us know if we can help.
(20:17:57) sgatz: Thank you!
(20:18:00) jlohfink: Thanks and good night
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(20:49:27) ppeterso [ppeterso@jabber.fnal.gov/Gaim] entered the room.
(20:50:11) ppeterso: Laura I have tried to go to the breakout link for Nov. 7th but it doesn't let me go I get a resource error. How do I get in
(20:51:04) Laura: hi
(20:52:11) Laura: i'm checking it
(20:52:35) ppeterso: thanks
(20:52:46) Laura: Hi. This is too early to post
(20:52:56) ppeterso: oh
(20:53:02) ppeterso: When can I post
(20:53:14) Laura: the facilitators have to take the responses that were just made today and use it to make the choices for Nov 7
(20:53:48) Laura: several people didn't post till just before the chat, so the facilitaors could not make the choices yet because they were teaching
(20:53:59) Laura: probably by Thursday
(20:54:29) ppeterso: Okay. Sorry to bother you.
(20:54:32) Laura: they have to look to see what topics were most wanted and use those as the breakout topics
(20:54:51) Laura: no problem .. it is a great sign that you are caught up and looking ahead!
(20:55:05) ppeterso: Have a great week. I will talk with next week:-D
(20:55:15) Laura: have a good night
(20:55:19) ppeterso: Good Night.
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